Author Topic: Israel and Gaza  (Read 37501 times)

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we have seen that Israel says that they have tried everything ..... everything except returning to the 1967 boundaries......

Would you agree with me that returning to the 1967 borders would be a process that would take some time. Israel would have to uproot a bunch of settlements and relocate thousands of citizens etc... it's doable but It takes time and there is always a first step right?

Well guess what? Israel already made the first steps. They pulled out of Gaza. Tore thousands of Israelis from their homes and gave control over Gaza to the Palestinians. What did the Palestinians do? Well instead of taking over the Farms and Internationally renowned farming innovations developed right there in gush katif to benefit them and their families and start building where things were left off they destroyed and ransacked EVERYTHING and then it gets really good. Then they started attacking Israel... more than they had before that.
You know why? because they saw that violence and destruction got them started on their way and so like any undisciplined child will do they "fussed" even more. Pulling out of Gaza was just about the dumbest thing Israel has even done.

So Israel has already taken the first steps towards peace and was spit on for it. It's the Palestinians turn. They need to prove themselves before anyone should ever trust them again.

Oh and the Gypsys and mentally ill are not a race
"Romani people, living worldwide
Lom people, in East Anatolia and Armenia
Lyuli, in Central Asia
Dom people, in South-West Asia
Various nomadic groups in South Asia, like Banjara
Irish Travellers, also known as Pavee, mostly in Ireland, Great Britain, and the United States
Sea Gypsies, a number of different peoples of Southeast Asia
Yeniche (people), mostly in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France, and Belgium" These are all Gypsys. And I don't need to tell you that there are mentally ill in every nation on earth. And don't forget Israel was given BACK to the Jews.
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Offline General Battuta

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Hoo boy.

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Offline Ghostavo

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To further expand i think Ghost was aiming for a third party to attempt to subjugate them into peace

Aye.

These two populations clearly cannot co-exist in such close proximity. There will be no peace unless these populations are somehow separated, be it by destruction, displacement, or a third party. This is precisely the kind of harsh and inconvenient reality the international community must face if the human race is ever to achieve any measure of peace. After all Gaza is a comparatively small place making this a comparatively small problem.

Exactly!

And don't forget Israel was given BACK to the Jews.

You do not want to open that can of worms... :doubt:
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Offline Nuclear1

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Israel was given to the Jewish people because Europe was tired of having them. And so, in keeping with early 20th century European SNAFU, they dumped their problem on the Middle East.
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Offline Turambar

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Argh.  I want to argue, but its early and i don't feel like doing research and making long, multi-quote posts.

I'll post the simple version.

**** Zionists
Normal Israelis/Jews are fine.

And if the rockets were only hitting Zionists, "Settlers" and the like (through some miracle of guidance), I'd be there shooting them too.
10:55:48   TurambarBlade: i've been selecting my generals based on how much i like their hats
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Offline captain-custard

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Quote
Oh and the Gypsys and mentally ill are not a race
"Romani people, living worldwide
Lom people, in East Anatolia and Armenia
Lyuli, in Central Asia
Dom people, in South-West Asia
Various nomadic groups in South Asia, like Banjara
Irish Travellers, also known as Pavee, mostly in Ireland, Great Britain, and the United States
Sea Gypsies, a number of different peoples of Southeast Asia
Yeniche (people), mostly in Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France, and Belgium" These are all Gypsys. And I don't need to tell you that there are mentally ill in every nation on earth. And don't forget Israel was given BACK to the Jews.



israeal never existed before 1948

the jewish ppl have been nomadic and were through out history , living in all the places you mentioned above ,

please when you attack or take apart thre argument of some one else use "real facts and not ones that you have pulled out of the darker regions of your posterior...


and as for the race issue , jeudaism is a religion and israel is a state neither of which are a race , where as roma gypsies are a race, and many other ppl in these travbelling comunities have a single ethnic status where as the jewish ppl , are not orf one race but of many mixed races that all follow the same religion(including all factions of judaism)

as for the issue that returning to the boundries of 12967 will take some time , i agree but it should not take this much time and the only prime minister who ever tried to get towards this was assisinated by his own ppl ,


i whish to clarify that i am not anti jewish or pro palastinian i am against all forms of abuse and clearly the israeli posistion atm is inhuman and futile ,

it is time to move forward and return the lands and to stop hiding behind a religous doctorine to lay claim to the ancestoral home of so many ppl.....
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Offline karajorma

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Hamas have actually stated that their goal is to get Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders. Which therefore makes them "an organization whose stated goal was the liberation of it's people and it's country by targeting military infrastructure "

 :rolleyes:

Hamas - Politics on Wikipedia

The unexpurgated text of the Hamas Charter, first published in 1988

I like article 13 allot but all of them are good.  ;7:yes:

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the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement.

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There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.

From the very same page you posted.

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Hamas omitted its call for the destruction of Israel from its election manifesto, calling instead for "the establishment of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem." On 8 February 2006, Hamas head Khaled Mashal speaking in Cairo had clarified that "Anyone who thinks Hamas will change is wrong", stating that while Hamas is willing for a ceasefire with Israel, its long term goal remains: Israel must withdraw from all land occupied in 1967.

So you're quoting stuff from 20 years ago.

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so "Hamas have actually stated that their goal is to get Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders. Which therefore makes them"... Liars. It's what they are best at and what they are told is allowed by their religion if it will give them the upper hand to allow them to destroy their enemies. Seriously I can't believe people actually think they know who these people are and what they intend to do in this world without understanding what they live and die for. "Article Eight: The Slogan of the Hamas
Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief."

Both sides are liars. That's my entire point. But if you honestly believe that they are, why not prove that they are liars and withdraw to the 1967 borders then? You'd definitely see any support from the rest of the world dry up immediately if you did that and they still continued to fight.

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Hey When the Palestinians have their own state they can let whoever they want into it. But until then why would Israel do about the dumbest thing it could possibly do and allow hundreds of thousands of refugees back into the West Bank and Gaza so that you can have even more hopelessly fanatical people who want to kill you in one place?

Ah. So it's okay to dispossess people and steal their land because....?

Nope, sorry I can't see how you hope  to justify that one.

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And you are Damn right Israel won't let Muslims in the country except under their terms! Just like they won't let anyone into Israel except under those terms. I would like to see one nation that says "hey come immigrate to our country and form your own laws and rules." So if Muslims want to come to Israel and become Israeli citizens then they will have to abide by the laws and rules of Israel.

Funny how that didn't apply when the British let the Jews in after WWII.  

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And they are still a majority in the original plan for Israel. Lest we forget that 2/3 of what was going to be declared by the UN as Israel was given to the Arabs who were in the land (there were no 'Palestinians' back then) and is today called Jordan. But there were those who said they would rather live under Jewish rule in Israel than move. Understandable. But some of those that said that, lied. and they attacked and were beaten. And besides if you want to go back to who was here first then you will spend all your time going back and forth since Israel has changed owners more times than a.... well something that has many different owners.

I've already explained once how that nonsense results in Israel being owned by the Spanish. :p

However there are people alive now who actually remember living in Israel before it became a Jewish state. As far as I'm concerned, living memory is the dividing line when considering this sort of thing.

But do you really believe the choice was "Live happily under Jewish rule or leave and go elsewhere"? Do you claim that no Palestinians were forced to leave?
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Offline IPAndrews

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Anyone who uses events half a century or more in the past to justify violence in the present deserves to get either a rocket or a bomb dropped on their head. Frankly I don't care which. So by all means go over there and fight for your chosen cause! The world will be a better place without you. In fact right now I would imagine there are plenty of people in Israel and Gaza who would be happy to leave hostility in the past and live in peace. Why not trade places with one of them? They can live and you can die for/with your cause. Win, win situation :yes:
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Guys, to be honest it'd be better to discuss something else on December 31st... :doubt:
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Hoo boy.

Splinter, there's no point in getting angry on the Internet. Let's just all let it go.

uuuh... I'm not mad... I get a bit passionate maybe but I enjoy healthy discussion. And If I came across mad then I apologize.

Argh.  I want to argue, but its early and i don't feel like doing research and making long, multi-quote posts.

I'll post the simple version.

**** Zionists
Normal Israelis/Jews are fine.

And if the rockets were only hitting Zionists, "Settlers" and the like (through some miracle of guidance), I'd be there shooting them too.

Believe it or not I have no love for allot of the settlers and most the ultra orthodox either. and neither does your average Israeli. Each for very different reasons though. I personally wouldn't go as far as launching rockets however. :p

israeal never existed before 1948

the jewish ppl have been nomadic and were through out history , living in all the places you mentioned above ,

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The Jews enjoyed two periods of political autonomy in their national homeland, the Land of Israel, during ancient history. The first era spanned from 1350 to 586 BCE, and encompassed the periods of the Judges, the United Monarchy, and the Divided Monarchy of the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, ending with the destruction of the First Temple. The second era was the period of the Hasmonean Kingdom spanning from 140 to 37 BCE. Since the destruction of the First Temple, the diaspora has been the home of most of the world's Jews.[11] Except in the modern State of Israel, established in 1948

There seems to be two distinct long periods of time in World history, before 1948, where there was...

please when you attack or take apart thre argument of some one else use "real facts and not ones that you have pulled out of the darker regions of your posterior...

I didn't see anyone attacking but you buddy so chill out eh? Have a cold one and let's continue discussing without getting all riled up.  :yes:

and as for the race issue , jeudaism is a religion and israel is a state neither of which are a race , where as roma gypsies are a race, and many other ppl in these travbelling comunities have a single ethnic status where as the jewish ppl , are not orf one race but of many mixed races that all follow the same religion(including all factions of judaism)

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A Jew (Hebrew: יְהוּדִי‎, Yehudi (sl.); יְהוּדִים, Yehudim (pl.); Ladino: ג׳ודיו, Djudio (sl.); ג׳ודיוס, Djudios (pl.); Yiddish: ייִד, Yid (sl.); ייִדן, Yidn (pl.))[10] is a member of the Jewish people, an ethnoreligious group originating from the Israelites or Hebrews of the ancient Middle East. The Jewish people and the religion of Judaism are strongly interrelated

As in, not the same. In fact most of the people in Israel are Jews but don't practice Judaism religiously. They will keep some traditions but for the most part it's a secular nation.

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Jews include three groups: people who were born to a Jewish family regardless of whether or not they follow the religion, those who have some Jewish ancestral background or lineage (sometimes including those who do not have strictly matrilineal descent), and people without any Jewish ancestral background or lineage who have formally converted to Judaism and therefore are followers of the religion.

As you can see Jews does not only mean someone who follows Judaism it is a broad term encompassing mostly those people who are believed to be the descendants of Jacob (Israel)

as for the issue that returning to the boundries of 12967 will take some time , i agree but it should not take this much time and the only prime minister who ever tried to get towards this was assisinated by his own ppl ,


i whish to clarify that i am not anti jewish or pro palastinian i am against all forms of abuse and clearly the israeli posistion atm is inhuman and futile ,

it is time to move forward and return the lands and to stop hiding behind a religous doctorine to lay claim to the ancestoral home of so many ppl.....


So the return of Gaza wasn't a step towards returning Israel to the 1967 borders? It was a what? Why did Israel do it then if this wasn't a step in the direction the Palestinian people were fighting for them to take?

Forget the religious doctrine how about the legal right for Israel to exist no matter what mistakes were made by the UN and whomever else in it's formation. It's here now. It either has a right to exist or it doesn't. The Hamas say it doesn't. I tend to disagree with them.
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Offline Mobius

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Guys, to be honest it'd be better to discuss something else on December 31st... :doubt:

Nevermind...
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Offline karajorma

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Anyone who uses events half a century or more in the past to justify violence in the present deserves to get either a rocket or a bomb dropped on their head. Frankly I don't care which. So by all means go over there and fight for your chosen cause! The world will be a better place without you. In fact right now I would imagine there are plenty of people in Israel and Gaza who would be happy to leave hostility in the past and live in peace. Why not trade places with one of them? They can live and you can die for/with your cause. Win, win situation :yes:

Well on one hand we have the Palestinians using events from 50 years ago and on the other we have the Jews using events from 2000 years ago. :p

The Jews are only calm now cause they have the upper hand. If it were the other way round they'd be just as violent.
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From the very same page you posted.

Quote
Hamas omitted its call for the destruction of Israel from its election manifesto, calling instead for "the establishment of an independent state whose capital is Jerusalem." On 8 February 2006, Hamas head Khaled Mashal speaking in Cairo had clarified that "Anyone who thinks Hamas will change is wrong", stating that while Hamas is willing for a ceasefire with Israel, its long term goal remains: Israel must withdraw from all land occupied in 1967.

So you're quoting stuff from 20 years ago.

Hey, when something says eternal and forever a few dozen times and then they continue throught history to do exactly what they said they would I tend to believe them. It's 20 years ago but today they are still doing the exact same thing they were 20 years ago. Preaching and practicing the death of Israel.

I know about that claim you quoted in 2006 but you know what I think? I think it's because their manifesto started being published they realized they would never get anyone to trust them and so they lied I know it's shocking but why would you put that beneath them when every country on earth has done it. So a terrorist organization wouldn't? Everywhere in their texts and their preaching and their doings you see them calling for the destruction of Israel up to this very day. So why should I trust them when they tell me that they have changed. How about they change and then we'll talk.

Quote
so "Hamas have actually stated that their goal is to get Israel to withdraw to the 1967 borders. Which therefore makes them"... Liars. It's what they are best at and what they are told is allowed by their religion if it will give them the upper hand to allow them to destroy their enemies. Seriously I can't believe people actually think they know who these people are and what they intend to do in this world without understanding what they live and die for. "Article Eight: The Slogan of the Hamas
Allah is its goal, the Prophet its model, the Qur’an its Constitution, Jihad its path and death for the case of Allah its most sublime belief."

Both sides are liars. That's my entire point. But if you honestly believe that they are, why not prove that they are liars and withdraw to the 1967 borders then? You'd definitely see any support from the rest of the world dry up immediately if you did that and they still continued to fight.

But don't you see that's exactly what Israel did and we all thought it would work exactly like you said. I will pose the question to you like I did the other guy. Do you agree that a withdrawal to 1967 borders would take time and that there is always a first step? Don't you think that by showing a little good will and taking that first step Israel should have been met with an equal first step of ending hostilities against it instead of an increase? We have tried already and it failed. So you want us to reward more body bags.

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Hey When the Palestinians have their own state they can let whoever they want into it. But until then why would Israel do about the dumbest thing it could possibly do and allow hundreds of thousands of refugees back into the West Bank and Gaza so that you can have even more hopelessly fanatical people who want to kill you in one place?

Ah. So it's okay to dispossess people and steal their land because....?

Nope, sorry I can't see how you hope  to justify that one.

I don't understand how you got that from what I said.

Quote
And you are Damn right Israel won't let Muslims in the country except under their terms! Just like they won't let anyone into Israel except under those terms. I would like to see one nation that says "hey come immigrate to our country and form your own laws and rules." So if Muslims want to come to Israel and become Israeli citizens then they will have to abide by the laws and rules of Israel.

Funny how that didn't apply when the British let the Jews in after WWII.  

Let the Jews in where?

Quote
And they are still a majority in the original plan for Israel. Lest we forget that 2/3 of what was going to be declared by the UN as Israel was given to the Arabs who were in the land (there were no 'Palestinians' back then) and is today called Jordan. But there were those who said they would rather live under Jewish rule in Israel than move. Understandable. But some of those that said that, lied. and they attacked and were beaten. And besides if you want to go back to who was here first then you will spend all your time going back and forth since Israel has changed owners more times than a.... well something that has many different owners.

I've already explained once how that nonsense results in Israel being owned by the Spanish. :p

However there are people alive now who actually remember living in Israel before it became a Jewish state. As far as I'm concerned, living memory is the dividing line when considering this sort of thing.

But do you really believe the choice was "Live happily under Jewish rule or leave and go elsewhere"? Do you claim that no Palestinians were forced to leave?

What? The Spanish? What in the... lol

I don't claim that. There were people back then who did stupid terrible things just like there are today. But many times will hear about all sorts of stories of early Jewish settlers and Arabs working together to develop communities and farming lands and all sorts of stuff. Things just got really really messed up really really fast. 8 or 9 wars didn't help their cause either.

Anyone who uses events half a century or more in the past to justify violence in the present deserves to get either a rocket or a bomb dropped on their head. Frankly I don't care which. So by all means go over there and fight for your chosen cause! The world will be a better place without you. In fact right now I would imagine there are plenty of people in Israel and Gaza who would be happy to leave hostility in the past and live in peace. Why not trade places with one of them? They can live and you can die for/with your cause. Win, win situation :yes:

I don't want to have any miss-communications over nothing, were you addressing me directly or addressing people in general?
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Offline captain-custard

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congratulations splinter you can copy and paste and quote
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Offline IPAndrews

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Well on one hand we have the Palestinians using events from 50 years ago and on the other we have the Jews using events from 2000 years ago. :p

I don't doubt it. Stupidity knows no boundaries of race or nationality.
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Offline Mika

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I'm really starting side to with Israel on this stuff. They did pull out of Gaza (at least partially) only to be followed with more rockets. It would be fool-hardy to believe anything else would happen in future with similar events.

Though my judgement could be skewed by the peacekeepers that served there and were my superiors in the army back home. They had some interesting anecdotes and stories about the business in there.

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Offline Black Wolf

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How could you predict that the ousting of the PLO would cause the Palestinian people, years down the line, to elect a terrorist organization into power? the Hamas rise to power? and thinking the PLO would have stopped Hamas? The PLO WAS in power. And they refused to stop the Hamas what makes you think they would act any differently now?

The moderates in the Arab world have known for decades that religious extremists will grab power if given half a chance. That's why Egypt fights so hard against free and fair elections - to prevent the Muslim Brotherhood gaining the supremacy that their popular support could grant them (although I recognize they're a bad example, as their somewhat legitimate concerns about islamic extremists aqre used to prevent more liberal parties contesting the vote).

Hell, even a basic knopwledge of human nature and the Arab world (Which you people have decided to live in) would have told you what was inevitably going to happen:

Take one moderate government made effectively impotent by a hated neighbour.
Add a big spoonful of agression by that hated neighbour.
Add one cup of "plucky resistance fighter", who strikes back in basically ineffectual but highly public military displays. But make sure to combine this first with equally visible grass roots economic and social programs that do far more for local people than a weakened government can provide and a religous agenda that closely follows the views of a largely homogenous religious community.

And they just go crazy and elect these people when they stand in free and fair elections? No way! :eek:

Yeah. Wow. Didn't see that one coming. :doubt:

As for the Jewish rule of Israel, I've often wondered whether the average israeli jew would support Italy claiming the majority of Europe based on a 2000 year old mandate. Or, for that matter, claiming Israel due to the various periods of Roman-inspired crusader rule in the midle ages.


then you'd think 'Tel Aviv'

The problem's not blast damage so much as it is fallout. It's easy to forget how tiny Israel is.



Tel Aviv would still be pretty much the prime target though, if someone decided to do it. Course, if it were me in that position, I'd nuke Medina, but for toally different reasons :D
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Offline karajorma

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Hey, when something says eternal and forever a few dozen times and then they continue throught history to do exactly what they said they would I tend to believe them. It's 20 years ago but today they are still doing the exact same thing they were 20 years ago. Preaching and practicing the death of Israel.

Yet I see people from Israel saying similar stuff about how the lands taken in 1967 eternally and forever belong to Israel.

And Israel is still doing much the same thing, consolidating it's hold on the occupied terratories. Yet you expect me to believe Israel wants to give them back and have peace?

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So why should I trust them when they tell me that they have changed. How about they change and then we'll talk.

I've said numerous times before that it's a real pity that they don't take a leaf out of Ghandi's book and go for non-violent resistance instead. They'd probably have had more luck that way cause even the States couldn't turn a blind eye to them then.

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But don't you see that's exactly what Israel did and we all thought it would work exactly like you said. I will pose the question to you like I did the other guy. Do you agree that a withdrawal to 1967 borders would take time and that there is always a first step?

How is withdrawing all your settlers and then closing the borders while building new settlements in the West Bank a first step? Let's face it. Israel didn't particularly want the Gaza Strip. It's more trouble than it's worth to keep it. The West Bank is what they want and there are no plans on the table to give that back at all.

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Don't you think that by showing a little good will and taking that first step Israel should have been met with an equal first step of ending hostilities against it instead of an increase?


You really think giving back the West Bank was a measure of good will? From Ariel Sharon? After he campaigned against doing it?

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Quote
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Hey When the Palestinians have their own state they can let whoever they want into it. But until then why would Israel do about the dumbest thing it could possibly do and allow hundreds of thousands of refugees back into the West Bank and Gaza so that you can have even more hopelessly fanatical people who want to kill you in one place?

Ah. So it's okay to dispossess people and steal their land because....?

Nope, sorry I can't see how you hope  to justify that one.

I don't understand how you got that from what I said.

They did have their own state. They got kicked off their land or left to avoid the war and now Israel holds that land and refuses to allow anyone who left during the war to come back in because they are worried about the Muslims having a majority.

I don't buy that as a response from people who "just want to live in peace" I don't believe that it is only on security grounds that you refuse them. It's more about the fact that Israel would cease to be a Jewish state if the right to return was allowed. A completely hypocritical position considering that Israel only exists in the first place due to the same right and then Israel continues to encourage Jews to return to a homeland which they haven't been a part of for 2000 years while denying the right to Muslims who were born there or are direct descendants of those who left in 1948.

Remember that the talks between Yasser Arafat and Ehud Barak broke down on this very issue.

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What? The Spanish? What in the... lol

Descended from the Carthaginians who themselves are descended from the Phoencians who are related to the Canaanites.

So therefore they have a blood claim that predates the Jews. :p

Stupid, yes. But no more stupid than the Jews claiming they have a right to it.
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Offline Crazy_Ivan80

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I don't see a problem with Israel refusing the decendents of the arab refugees returning (cause that is what we're really talking about! The original refugees are less than a million, very old and dying off). No state can be asked to let in people that have stated that one of their goals would be the disbanding of the nation they enter.
Then there is of course the aspect of reciprocity, the Right of Return cuts both ways: if the arabs want to talk about the return of refugees, then they need to talk about all the refugees. That means all the jews that were chased out of the muslim and arab countries during the 20th century because they were jews. Remember that not all jews in Israel come from Europe, many -if not most- are from the middle-eastern Sefardi stock. That are the groups which in some cases had been living in middle eastern countries for longer than there were arabs present (like in Iraq and the Magreb) or longer than there was Islam (like in the Arab Peninsula). No arab country is about to take these people back, so why should Israel take in more arabs? The better way would be to do a population-exchange. Israel gets to keep their jews, the arab countries get the Palestinians (and the billions of dollars worth -adjusted for inflation and such- of wealth stolen from the jewish when they were chased away). More than a fair trade considering the Right of Return as expressed by the Arabs/Muslims is a non-starter.

There is of course the reality of Israel being a jewish state. It's the only one in the world, and for some reason many people take umbrage at the fact that Israel declares itself to be a jewish state (wether or not officially). Whereas there are dozens of islamic states of all sorts, and even a few christian states (where some form of christianity is the official state religion). Yet this does not seem to be a problem. Smacks of hypocrisy to me since there's no difference between the three (remember that both Islam and Christianity purport to be a global brotherhood, where all members of the religion are one. Islam calls it the Ummah, Christianity usually calls it the oecomene -sp?-)

ah, the case of the bombardments and its inevitable civilian casualties, and the quetion of who is responsible.
First we must know that Hamas (and Hezbollah) expressly places their stockpiles and military instalations in the midst of civilian infrastructure, with the intent of using these civilians -with or without their agreement!- as living shields. This in order to use the resulting casualties and pictures thereoff as a propaganda-tool against Israel. This activity (also used by Saddam and Milosevic to use a few others) is expressly forbidden by the Conventions. Since Hamas engages in this activity with a strategical and tactical goal in mind it alone is responsible for the victims of their choice.

The disconnect between what the muslims/arabs claim about the Israelis and reality. No one is really claiming the the Israelis are saints. Thaey can't be given their situation: a fight for the very existance of their state and people against an enemy that has more than once stated its intent for genocide (Hamas, Hezbollah, the PLO in ages back, various Arab states since '48 and of course Iran's President when talking about his nukes he says they're not making), a few million people surrounded by a sea of humans that hate the very guts of jews (and have it validated in their religious books too). However, various anti-Israeli sources regularly ascribe to the Israeli state and the IDF in particular methods and goals that can be summed up as holocaust and genocide. Often enough Israel itself is compared to Nazi-Deutschland, a favourite in the demonization war.
The reality is of course very different: if the goals and methods of Israel were really like those of the nazis we'd have, by now, a region devoid of arabs either through plain old murder or expulsion. We all know that there are now more arabs in the region than there have ever been before.
We also know that when arab states deal with opposition in their own states, they do this in most brutal fashions. Remember the Syrians and the city of Hama, remember the war against the GIA in Algeria, remember the Saudi response to Shia demands, remember Saddam, remember the Lebanese response to the terrorists hiding in Palestinian refugeecamps last year and in 2007! Their methods were high in destruction and bodycount. Excessive even in the case of Algeria and Hama in Syria.
As such we can only conclude that the Arabs ascribe to the Israelis methods and motives that are basically those of the Arabs. In the same way that authoritarian states cannot really believe that non-authoritarian regimes do work as advertised. So while the Israelis aren't saints they try to minimise the effects of warfare the Arabs are incapable of grasping this because they innately believe that their enemy is really the same as they are. Hence their spurious claimes about "Nazi-Israel".



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Offline karajorma

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So just how many Jews do you think actually want to return to Iraq then? :p

Seriously though I don't think anyone is foolish enough to claim anyone in the region is a saint. However I do treat claims that Israel just wants peace with severe scepticism while they continue to build settlements in the occupied territories. Similarly while I have no problem with a Jewish state existing, I do have a problem with one existing by booting other religions out or harassing them so that they leave (and it's not just Muslims either). That kind of **** goes on all throughout the Middle East but I'd expect better from the Jews, especially since they base their right to Israel on the fact that they themselves were forced out 2000 years ago.

As for Nazi-Israel claims, they're completely ridiculous.
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