Author Topic: 2008 Indie game of the year voting  (Read 11757 times)

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Offline FUBAR-BDHR

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
What TBP needs are campaigns, not new ships, imo.

Exactly.  Even single mission packs would help.  All I'm saying is that if someone feels they need a new ship for a campaign to work nothing is stopping them from doing it as a mod.   
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Offline darkmaster

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
:D Well as I said before I'm a B5 fan, I see thing from the viewpoint of a B5 fan, not a FREDDer or MODDer. There is 3 types of TBP players : ones who played TBP because it's a mod of FS2, ones who played TBP because they enjoyed the B5 show too much, and the last type is a mix of the previous ones.

So let's begin, what does a B5 fan expect from TBP ? They expect to be able to participate in the Shadow War, the Earth-Minbari war, the Dilgar War, the Drakh war.. and more than that, they expect to know more about the B5 universe. (That is why many people played the B5 war game and purchased their documents, they want just to know more about the different races despicted in the show but never been seen in action)

Yes TBP has a lot of ships, but the B5 universe is huge, there is also a lot of races, and many of these races don't have even a ship in TBP. For example how to visit the Abbai homeworld when there is no Abbai ship ? How to visit Sigma957 when there is no Walker ship ? How about the Cascor, the Lumati ... ? Isn't it a little boring fighting the Vree without their fighters ? In this current state of TBP only the Earth-Minbari war can be made without any flaws (since it involved only 2 races).

How many races are there in FreeSpace ? 4 - I guess, although only 3 races sont despicted, and for 3 races you have how many ships ? Compared to the number of races in TBP we cannot say that TBP has too much ships.

Currently we have a least 6 campaigns in development and I guess all will be released this year, including some huge campaigns like EA civil war of Skullar and some extremely well done campaigns like FH series. After that the FREDDers are gonna need new ships for later development so it will be very great if a new ship pack can also be developped this year.

As I said from the beginning, those above are just my view-point, so don't take it as a serious problem though. This game is already great and as a B5 fan I appreciate it so much, that is why I decided to learn FRED and help improving it.  :yes: :pimp:

 

« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 04:52:35 pm by darkmaster »
TBP's apprentice FREDDER.

Campaign in development:
Guardian of Light (Demo state)(Download DEMO here)
The First Invasion - Part 1 (Planning Concept)

Single Mission :
Human-Narn First Contact (Download here)

 

Offline Angelus

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
Yes TBP has a lot of ships, but the B5 universe is huge, there is also a lot of races, and many of these races don't have even a ship in TBP. For example how to visit the Abbai homeworld when there is no Abbai ship ? How to visit Sigma957 when there is no Walker ship ? How about the Cascor, the Lumati ... ? Isn't it a little boring fighting the Vree without their fighters ? In this current state of TBP only the Earth-Minbari war can be made without any flaws (since it involved only 2 races).


After that the FREDDers are gonna need new ships for later development so it will be very great if a new ship pack can also be developped this year.

As I said from the beginning, those above are just my view-point, so don't take it as a serious problem though. This game is already great and as a B5 fan I appreciate it so much, that is why I decided to learn FRED and help improving it.  :yes: :pimp:



I beg to differ in some points.

It might be true that new assets ( ships or whatever ) open new possibility's, but so far only a small percentage of the already existing assets has been used in campaigns.

IIRC, most Races of the League of Non-aligned worlds trade their ships to other members or races ( confirmed are the Drazi and Brakiri ).

EA also sold a lot of freighters to other races due to their low maintenance costs.

I never saw a Vree fighter, only the two saucers that are already ingame.
The Lumati never played a major role in the show, they have been only one or two times mentioned after their appearance.

You can recreate the entire Shadow War, the Narn- Centauri War, the Earth- Minbari War, you can even create a campaign based on the Shadow war that played 1000 years ago, with Sinclair/ Valen, the thirdspace conflict, the Drakh vs ISA conflict and so many more...

I don't have anything against the idea of new ships, but you need a modeler with free time and interest in B5.


I prefer to see new campaigns with known Races, like Vidmasters FH, maybe a Dark Children 2, Skullars campaign and the next part of Guardians of Light, of course.  ;)

« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 04:59:25 pm by Angelus »
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Offline darkmaster

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
It might be true that new assets ( ships or whatever ) open new possibility's, but so far only a small percentage of the already existing assets has been used in campaigns.

IIRC, most Races of the League of Non-aligned worlds trade their ships to other members or races ( confirmed are the Drazi and Brakiri ).

EA also sold a lot of freighters to other races due to their low maintenance costs.

I never saw a Vree fighter, only the two saucers that are already ingame.
The Lumati never played a major role in the show, they have been only one or two times mentioned after their appearance.

I prefer to see new campaigns with known Races, like Vidmasters FH, maybe a Dark Children 2, Skullars campaign and the next part of Guardians of Light, of course.  ;)


Just some information to light up some points :
1> Some assets are never used because there is only one context to put them in (like first ones' ships , although we lack the Sigma957 ship). Some can only be used very carefully like Whitestar or Vree ships.
2> Confirmed. They trade old ships (not the newest models though) ( but isn't it strange to visit the Abbai homeworld and see a bunch of Drazi and Vree ships instead of Abbai ships ? )
3> Vrees have saucer fighters (not showed in the show but in they exist in the extended universe).

Generally a campaign doesn't need additional ships, only a full-scale war needs. So far there is still no full-scale war campaign involving many races so until now it is ok but i'm pretty sure we will need more ships in the next year (2010).

Just out of curiosity there are how many campaigns of TBP currently in development ? I'm trying to make a list :

1> EA War
2> FH2261
3> Tales of the EAS Janus remake (yeah this campaign will be out this year, probably before summer, confirmed Minburo)
4> Guardian of Light
5> Awakening of the Beast
6> The Black Hand
7> Dark Ocean

Also, there was anoucements of 3 campaigns but i'm not sure they will be out this year :
7> Earth-Brakiri War 2
8> Battle at ...
9> Crusade - Project (does this project still alive ?)

Does anyone else have more to add to the list ? Judging from the number of developing projects I can say that TBP wouldn't fail in its mission huh ? :D :D

 
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 06:28:25 pm by darkmaster »
TBP's apprentice FREDDER.

Campaign in development:
Guardian of Light (Demo state)(Download DEMO here)
The First Invasion - Part 1 (Planning Concept)

Single Mission :
Human-Narn First Contact (Download here)

 

Offline Angelus

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
add mine:

Dark Ocean
« Last Edit: January 19, 2009, 05:59:42 pm by Angelus »
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Offline VERTi60

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
I agree that TBP needs more official single player campaings but that's not the real issue why it wasn't picked in top 100. The single player is fun to play, but it only lasts till you have it completed. And presto, game has been played, ready to uinstall.

The real issue is multiplayer. Take a look at other indie winners.
Most of them are multiplayer-only games. I personally play 2 from those indie winners: C&C Reborn, C&C APB which both made it top just like last year. Guess what. They don't have a single player at all. Not even a tutorial or an official campaign, not even one single mission. It's all multiplayer fps games based on the old W3D engine enhanced with a lot of scripts. It's popular but not because it's fps (it's also based from RTS in some sort), but because it's multiplayer, teamwork and online community based games.

They also made it in top because their multiplayer is far more supported using some old and new assets making it very easy for new players to join (just download a game with the built launcher which has the official server IPs already in). More even the multiplayer is supported with websites, custom maps, online ranks, lots of scripts and bots to help both playing and ranking. The community is large, devided in many clans and the overall support is just huge.

Just take a look into comparrision. C&C APB has really dozents of online moderators and at least two server operators at all times. 8-30 players all the time on their server.

TBP has one multiplayer mod (pokes FUBAR  :)) and the session is only available one day (which is reasonable considering the amount of online games).

Now with this there's no doubt that TBP and none of the FS2 mods will make it in top indie games.

So what TBP really needs, is to get a large multiplayer overhaul with at least monthly updates. Yes new campaigns are needed but it would attract more people if they were all co-op or team vs team based. Server and MP should be available all the time not just one session of the week. There should be official missions for multiplayer as well and they should support the plot cannon from the show to reflect the B5 universe as much as possible.

Such a multiplayer mission should also look interesting like e.g. Severed Dreams mission where one team defends bab5 where other are Clarks forces. The action should take place right after starting the mission - e.g one team jumps in and the fighting will start soon.

Also the FRED editors are very open to set various objectives to all multiplayer missions so making interesting missions shouldn't be a problem.


Why else wasn't TBP picked for top Indie games.

As mentioned earlier it's mainly because the project is new on moddb. It also lacks information, feedback and updates so people are not hearing from it much. The new media added and everything else is fine, but still new people are not going to watch the game for long if there are no updates (even if there are but not posted).

I've started to record missions to attract new players into the scene, but that's just a little effort. TBP needs more and serious advertising overall.

And last reason, already mentioned and very clever though, is, that this conversion has gone final. Which isn't exactly true seeming there are updates being done for the builts. I bet there will be updated stuff for the multiplayer. So let's hear from them. All updates should go to public ASAP so people won't run away after a while. And not just this forum but also places where people are searching for new games.

Well just some thoughts.
The Babylon Project was our last best hope for peace. It failed...
...it became something greater: Our last best hope for victory.


-watch or download The Babylon Project: Raider Wars the Movie-

-recorded TBP missions & campaigns-

-Freespace Portal SK-

-NetStorm: Islands at War, free online RTS game-

 

Offline Vidmaster

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
at least there is a discussion. But please, don't act here as not getting into the 100 would a horrible failure, I would have been surprised if we made it. FlightSims aren't the most popular genre out there and not the long anticipated and well promoted ST:R made it. Despite Goober's viral marketing was great!
There are other more high-profile mods guys!!!

I agree to some discussion subjects.

Although it spins a bit out of control in the ship department. FACT is that most TBP ships never get used. Don't start argueing about that. The big exception is FH since that campaign was desiged from the beginning with one thing in mind to show what TBP is capable of (yeah okay, maybe also what I was capable of :lol:).
FACT is most campaigns concentrate on a few particular races and their ships.
TBP doesn't need new ships and to counter darkmaster's argument, you don't see many of these alien ships in the show either. Imagine we would cut the list down to canon ships, that would be a nightmare.

I agree with the single player part. We need a new high-profile release. Possible candidates are:
- Drums of War Trilogy with Voice Acting  (no date but should take ages)
- Fortune Hunters Trilogy with Voice Acting  (late spring 09 without voiceacting hopefully)
- EACW fully voice acted (no date at all)
still, we don't have a campaign team. We have individual fredders and they will release the stuff when it's ready. Basta, nothing to change about that. I'll gladly *pimp* any of these campaigns via modDB but first they will have to get released and they will have to work.

I also agree about Multiplayer getting more newbie friendly and FUBAR and I have already talked about this various times. We can't do anything until 3.6.10 is finally finished, although that should be soon.
I think we got more than enough missions to have some fun, although a few more complex TvT would be something. Still, these are very difficult to balance. I'll get to it when I have the time.
There will be a patch with new instructions when the time is ready.

Master has spoken.
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Offline IPAndrews

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
Seriously if everyone who complained about the lack of missions and campaigns started making use of the ONE 120+ ships and fully featured mission editor we have given them to make missions and campaigns, we would be buried under an avalanche of missions and campaigns. I'm sure we'd even host them for you to share if you asked nicely.

It's not that difficult guys. Get off your lazy asses and make something. We spent 10 years giving you this little Babylon 5 universe in a box. Now take it out of it's box and play with it.
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Offline Angelus

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting

still, we don't have a campaign team. We have individual fredders and they will release the stuff when it's ready.


Why don't you guys team up and create a "official team" campaign?

A campaign that would work in SP and MP...

IPAndrews and Vidmaster have already worked on large scale campaigns, and FUBAR could handle the multiplayer coop version of that campaign, not alone of course.
Karajorma is also still team member although Diaspora keeps him busy, he might add one thing or another.
Maybe other guys joins in too as well.
It might  draw more attention if the TBP team starts working on a "official TBP" campaign.


Just an ( coffein and nicotin induced ) idea, so please don't fire Shadow slicer beams on me... :p
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Offline IPAndrews

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
Why don't you guys team up and create a "official team" campaign?

Because TBP is FINAL. Campaign development teams are fine but they won't be "official" teams.

A campaign that would work in SP and MP...

Because single and multiplayer play completely differently and a great campaign in one is a rubbish campaign in the other.

IPAndrews and Vidmaster have already worked on large scale campaigns, and FUBAR could...

Learn how to use FRED yourselves!!! Stop relying on "official teams" to spoon feed you. I appreciate you don't want to FRED a campaign to play yourself but consider this. If you FRED something it will encourage others to FRED something you might want to play. You scratch my back I'll scratch yours. It's all about making that initial effort and not constantly asking someone else to do it for you. Who knows maybe you'll enjoy releasing something you've created to the public? I know I did.
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Offline Angelus

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
Well, in that case a "un-official" team campaign. :D

Like i said, just an idea,

For the FRED-it-yourself part: i work on a mission for BtRL, FREDing is to 90% finished the last 10% as soon i get the darn Asteroid modelled, which is a PITA.

Meanwhile i started FREDing a small campaign for B5.

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Offline darkmaster

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
IPAndrews and Vidmaster have already worked on large scale campaigns, and FUBAR could...

Learn how to use FRED yourselves!!! Stop relying on "official teams" to spoon feed you. I appreciate you don't want to FRED a campaign to play yourself but consider this. If you FRED something it will encourage others to FRED something you might want to play. You scratch my back I'll scratch yours. It's all about making that initial effort and not constantly asking someone else to do it for you. Who knows maybe you'll enjoy releasing something you've created to the public? I know I did.

First fact : He know how to FRED and he is damn good at it.  :D
Second fact : He is making a campaign for TBP (see the list)  :D

Want a campaign team ? Easily just create a forum and invite people to join. I'm sure if IP or Vidmaster create one, then a lot of FREDers will join. Or else if Angelus create one then I will join. If I create one then noone will join though. (that is why we need someone with a reputation in the community to begin something).

If we don't want a team, how about a forum for FREDers of TBP to meet and discuss things ? Like a cafeteria ? One can talk about the progress of his latest campaign, can discuss about plot development, but more importantly it is a place for FREDers to overcome his laziness and go on. Imagine if a new Fredder wants to make s,omething for TBP, that will be a perfect place for him to get support from his superiors.

Just an idea though.
TBP's apprentice FREDDER.

Campaign in development:
Guardian of Light (Demo state)(Download DEMO here)
The First Invasion - Part 1 (Planning Concept)

Single Mission :
Human-Narn First Contact (Download here)

 

Offline Angelus

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
IPAndrews and Vidmaster have already worked on large scale campaigns, and FUBAR could...

Learn how to use FRED yourselves!!! Stop relying on "official teams" to spoon feed you. I appreciate you don't want to FRED a campaign to play yourself but consider this. If you FRED something it will encourage others to FRED something you might want to play. You scratch my back I'll scratch yours. It's all about making that initial effort and not constantly asking someone else to do it for you. Who knows maybe you'll enjoy releasing something you've created to the public? I know I did.

First fact : He know how to FRED and he is damn good at it.  :D
Second fact : He is making a campaign for TBP (see the list)  :D


I beg to differ, i consider myself still a "nOOb" FREDer, who hates variables and the more i use them, the more i hate them.
I haven't released anything yet, it might, in a worst case scenario, turn out that people will call me "the new Derek Smart of HLP" because of the quality of my work.


Want a campaign team ? Easily just create a forum and invite people to join. I'm sure if IP or Vidmaster create one, then a lot of FREDers will join. Or else if Angelus create one then I will join. If I create one then noone will join though. (that is why we need someone with a reputation in the community to begin something).

If we don't want a team, how about a forum for FREDers of TBP to meet and discuss things ? Like a cafeteria ? One can talk about the progress of his latest campaign, can discuss about plot development, but more importantly it is a place for FREDers to overcome his laziness and go on. Imagine if a new Fredder wants to make s,omething for TBP, that will be a perfect place for him to get support from his superiors.

Just an idea though.


I don't think there is a seperate forum needed, most things can be discussed here or via PM/ IM.
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Offline IPAndrews

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
First fact : He know how to FRED and he is damn good at it.  :D
Second fact : He is making a campaign for TBP (see the list)  :D

That's great I'm very impressed. Consider me humbled and humiliated.

Want a campaign team ? Easily just create a forum and invite people to join. I'm sure if IP or Vidmaster create one, then a lot of FREDers will join.

Again with the reliance on myself and Vidmaster though. Anyone can start a team. But the best way to approach it is to get your campaign concept together first and then recruit a team. That way you get people onboard who are interested in the idea. The division of work makes things quicker and ensures you get missions written by other people to test. Which keeps things interesting.

Don't get an uber FRED team together and expect them to be enthusiastic about every campaign concept. I remember Skullar kept trying to get me to work on Earth Alliance Civil War but I did _nothing_ for it. Because I had to enthusiasm for it and no amount of convincing could change my mind.

(that is why we need someone with a reputation in the community to begin something)

Reputations are built. Any of you could knock up a three mission mini campaign (multiplayer ones are fun) in a few days. Suddenly, you have a reputation. People like you. Women especially. Hot chicks want to have sex with you. It's a rock and roll lifestyle. I remember the orgy at the Raider Wars wrap party. The girl dressed as Eris blew my... mind.

If we don't want a team, how about a forum for FREDers of TBP to meet and discuss things ?

That's one for the new bosses but Karajorma's general purpose FRED forum is a mecca for FRED experts. Kara himself is *the* expert bar none and will often answer your question before you've actually asked it. Which is quite freaky.
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Offline IPAndrews

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
I beg to differ, i consider myself still a "nOOb" FREDer, who hates variables and the more i use them, the more i hate them.

Expect a love hate relationship with FRED. It's very powerful, but quite strange. I hate FRED but love the things I've been able to do with it.

I haven't released anything yet, it might, in a worst case scenario, turn out that people will call me "the new Derek Smart of HLP"

Only Derek Smart is Derek Smart.
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Offline Vidmaster

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
There is another thing that makes campaign teams difficult. Campaign teams need to work together.  :lol:
Which is damn difficult, since every fredder has a different style, uses sexps in a different way, does things different! Not to mention they need to agree on a story, on characters and so on.

Teams are hellishly difficult.

Seriously, I understand you all want to play something new. But creating good things TAKES TIME. Free time to be precise. And you only have full controll over what you are fredding if you are doing it by yourself!
Either Patience or Fred yourselves.
We support new fredders, we answer questions, we help out with some story problems and if you remember I am part of that We.

About that forum: We have one. Just look at your thread. I liked that. I think really benefits missions, especially by new people. But not every fredder likes that. For example, I don't discuss what I am doing in the public. It's just the way I work.

IP said it: Everybody can start a team.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 07:29:12 am by Vidmaster »
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Offline Angelus

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
I beg to differ, i consider myself still a "nOOb" FREDer, who hates variables and the more i use them, the more i hate them.

Expect a love hate relationship with FRED. It's very powerful, but quite strange. I hate FRED but love the things I've been able to do with it.

I have that one already, it isn't that bad actually. It's a more love then hate relationship.
Variables are what makes me want sometimes to through my computer out of the window.



I haven't released anything yet, it might, in a worst case scenario, turn out that people will call me "the new Derek Smart of HLP"

Only Derek Smart is Derek Smart.

I feel relieved somehow... :)
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Offline IPAndrews

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
My experience of working with a team was a positive one. You'll notice there are many people involved in the Raider Wars missions. I think there must have been 4 or 5 mission designers in addition to myself. You will also notice though that my name is in the credits for every mission. That's because in many cases I would take the mission as written by the team member and then tweak the mission until it fitted in with my overall vision of the campaign. So as project leader I put a lot of work into every mission. That said, where someone else is credited for a mission they did a lot of work and it's this wider team that is responsible for Raider Wars being released.

I really want to FRED something else I'm seriously pissed off my computer is fried.
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Offline Vidmaster

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
Women especially. Hot chicks want to have sex with you. It's a rock and roll lifestyle.
now that would be something.

You won't find teammates when it starts like hey, I wrote that cool script, now would you fred it for me?
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Offline darkmaster

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Re: 2008 Indie game of the year voting
Yes it is better to FRED alone than working in a team.
A"team" is there to boost the motivation rather than to work together.

About "that" forum :
I think if you want to chat freely with other FREDDers it is good to have a separate forum. The subject is not only FREDding issues but also plotline issues, real life issues, internet issues, programming issues ...
The spirit is to have a place like the B5 station,which give birth to an "alliance" of TBP FREDders  ;7. They work separately but they do "trade" and chat there.
Excuse me I'm a little dreamy today lol
TBP's apprentice FREDDER.

Campaign in development:
Guardian of Light (Demo state)(Download DEMO here)
The First Invasion - Part 1 (Planning Concept)

Single Mission :
Human-Narn First Contact (Download here)