Author Topic: Epicurus Quote  (Read 53719 times)

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Offline karajorma

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Interestingly enough, that's totally irrevelant to my point. I'm not even going to bother addressing Epicurus. We're cutting direct to the eternal damnation issue.

As I said in my post that is assuming that the eternal damnation thing is actually real. If it is, then yeah I agree 100% that God must be evil since eternal damnation awaits everyone who doesn't believe in God regardless of whether or not they had ever even heard of him.
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Offline TrashMan

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In which case either they are unfallen or  God is really, really bad at learning from his mistakes. :p

Eh? :wtf:
unfallen? What is that supposed to mean?


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Some god telling people to do something wouldn't make "something" right, ("God is good" does not mean "good is God") people all have a preconception of good and evil quite separate from god, whether they know it or not.

That is open to much, much debate.
If there is a God, the creator of everything, then He would be way beyond our understanding and even wildest dreams when it comes to power, knowledge, etc..
So to assume to know ANYTHING better than Him would be downright insane. (if His intelligence and knowledge are virtually limitless)

Technicely, God saying that something is right would defacto make something right or good.



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While Nuke is just being, well, Nuke, I'm not.

This is in fact a particular gnostic viewpoint. God is not good. However, I'm going to take it to its logical extreme.

This is something that studying Christian theology sort of forced upon me; I was a practicing Christian once. But when it comes down to it, God is apparently an out-and-out asshole. The doctrine of original sin and being cast out of the Garden is the story of God blaming the people who were, morally, least cuplable for what happened. God never really got better about that kind of thing. The ultimate proof of this awaits in the lake of fire, where souls burn in torment for eternity, regardless of their crimes or whether God even bothered to check He had gotten His word to them and they even had a chance. I don't care what your crimes were. Even murder and rape, for which I would happily revoke your membership in the human race. Eternal torture is simply not moral. No crime is worthy of being burned alive forever. A week, a month, a year, perhaps even a decade. But not forever.

So put simply God is evil. If He exists, then we have a moral duty to rebel against Him, to free ourselves from His control and to destroy Him that He may never harm another.

I now coinsider it my moral duty to kill you.

You got everything mixed up. What the hell did they teach you anyway?
First, Hell is a foreign concept that we have no idea what it's actually like. It's described like bruning in the lake of fire, but that's just colorfull description. You can't experience Hell while alive, so no human can really describe it.
Secondly, you dont' ahev to be Crhistian to go to heaven.  I don't know where you got that from.
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Offline S-99

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Why is it that the biggest memebots are religious followers then?

If as you claim God wants fellowship then why would God want a bunch of yes men who constantly follow him around saying what a great person he is?
Not as if i claim, as the bible claims (the fellowship part). All i did earlier was make a comparison to natural reality and reality interpretted through the bible which included a scenario of mankind being created by Him. God through my understanding doesn't want a bunch of yes men. Just because there was many christian yes men in history doesn't mean that God wanted them. Yes men for any cause doesn't good because those people are most likely going to be radicals. Over 900 different christian denominations world wide all filled with yes people all believing that their own denomination is the only right way would definitely not be what God is after. Over 900 christian denominations with most at each other's throats all with people each pushing their own agenda as being the only correct "way" is not unity and definitely not what God wants. God wanting yes men sure would seem retarded and definitely counter intuitive to christianity itself (reminds me of catholicism versus calvinism back in the day).
If God didn't want drones then why did he claim he would reward those who act the most like drones? If as you claim God wants fellowship then why would God want a bunch of yes men who constantly follow him around saying what a great person he is?
God likes people to have faith in him and tests the faith of those who do have faith in Him. One of the hardest things to do as man is to let go of everything and follow one thing. Being an every day human, it's not easy believing in something you can't see, and even harder to believe that something you can't see is going to take care of you. It's a testament to faith and devotion when one follows God without any doubt. At the same time God is a jealous God. He really doesn't like it when man worships things other than Him. In other words God likes when people have devotion to Him
Or maybe it's that the test is not who has faith, but who chooses to ignore the bull****. If God wanted companions then the ones he'd want are not the ipods and lick-arses but the ones who actually pick out the good bits (Jesus talking about loving thy neighbour and being kind to everybody) and ignore the bad ones. God is painted as a kindly father much of the time.
The bible does say to go against the flow of the world. This has many contexts, one of them is ignoring bull**** and thinking for yourself. The bible also says follow the laws of the land. To go against the flow of the world and following the laws of the land doesn't contradict one another. Just a way for the bible to suggest being a smart rebel (in the sense of being smart and respectful of the laws of the land for where you are). Jesus was the best example of God in the bible ever. Jesus was one in the same as God as well as being his son. God cared enough about us that he brought himself down to earth in his mother "midi-chlorian" style and was the son of man.
I'd rather have kids who told me I was wrong than ones who simply parroted my ideals back to me because they'd never thought about them themselves. Surely every parent wants their child to be able to think for themselves rather than simply being a clone of themselves.
My mom doesn't like me because of this. My dad does like me because of this. This being the telling them when they're wrong about something and not parroting their ideals back to them. Most people can't handle when they're wrong, even when they know they're wrong. Parents are like this much of the time too. My mother would very much prefer me to be a non thinking religious automoton. That way she can continue leading me so i'll be a carbon copy of her. I could tell this was happening when i was on innocent dates with non christian girls (my mothers conditioning lead me to feel guilty for no reason after many dates until i thought about why). Most parents i've seen don't care if they're kids think for themselves. I've met many people who are my age or younger who exhibited the intelligence to think for themselves. I do my best to encourage people to think for themselves, of course many don't succeed or don't succeed for long most of the time falling back into their non thinking habits where they were most comfortable. Only smart parents are going to be able to handle hearing from their kids when they're wrong and these will be the parents who will teach their kids thinking for themselves. Following the theory that God is a god and is greater than mankind, he's never wrong and also would surely not tolerate some of the things He does being called wrong by a lesser being. Also in the bible God has great relationships with those who know how to think (God makes best use of those people).
If God does move in mysterious ways
Why would you even say something as this. It's a god you're talking about, gods are greater than man. Most of what gods do are going to be interpretted as mysterious because we won't always comprehend what they're up to. What's with the subtle notion of thinking that mankind would be greater than gods anyhow? That makes no sense otherwise gods wouldn't be gods.
I'm not going to go as far as NGTM-1R in saying that you need to get rid of God.
I wouldn't go so far as to say get rid of God completely as well. Just what i think is this world needs a lot less people manipulated by religions and beliefs for those who are of faith. This is why as being a christian myself, i just stick with the bible. It's obvious no single christian denomination is going to be the right way. And that no single religion is going to be the right way either (the understanding here is that they're all the right way).
If you do believe that there is a God, simply be aware that he might not have been as straight with you about what he wanted as the book claims.
I actually don't care about this idea. Jesus was straight up enough for me :)
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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In which case either they are unfallen or  God is really, really bad at learning from his mistakes. :p

Eh? :wtf:
unfallen? What is that supposed to mean?

Free of the so called original sin, which according to christian theology is the reason we need to be saved by our faith in God and Jesus, in order for our souls to survive death without unpleasant consequences.

Karajorma is simply saying that if God makes every sentient species "fall from grace" the same way as humanity allegedly did, he either wants it to happen so or alternatively just doesn't ever learn to avoid it...

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Some god telling people to do something wouldn't make "something" right, ("God is good" does not mean "good is God") people all have a preconception of good and evil quite separate from god, whether they know it or not.

That is open to much, much debate.
If there is a God, the creator of everything, then He would be way beyond our understanding and even wildest dreams when it comes to power, knowledge, etc..
So to assume to know ANYTHING better than Him would be downright insane. (if His intelligence and knowledge are virtually limitless)

Technicely, God saying that something is right would defacto make something right or good.

The problem in this is obviously that no one can know what God is saying, but many people claim to know so... and they claim God says a lot of contradicting things.

By the way tangenting to the other ongoing debate, do you think God should be allowed to, say, sacrifice people for the greater good because him saying it's for greater good would make it good? Obviously, you are no God, but what if you were? Would you allow yourself the right to do such things? What if you had created an on-going simulation of a world complete with sentient AI's interacting with each other and having odd notions about being your servants in order to save themselves from death, and decided to felgercarbcan the simulation to start it anew...?

Obviously your knowledge of the simulated world would be in, so to speak, higher level than the inhabitants of the simulation. But would it really mean that whatever you do to the simulation - hey, let's try a huge flood and see how these guys deal with it - would be good and right in the inhabitants' point of view because you do it or say it?

What I'm trying to say is this - what exactly is it that makes God's point of view regarding good and bad any more accurate or absolute than your or mine point of view? He's a personality according to religions, but even if he has complete knowledge of how the simulation (or world if you like, the analogy works just fine) runs, it doesn't really mean that his notions of good and evil should coincide with ours - or that even if we had absolute knowledge of his notions of good and evil, we should match ours to his, even if they happen to disagree with our ethic principles.


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While Nuke is just being, well, Nuke, I'm not.

This is in fact a particular gnostic viewpoint. God is not good. However, I'm going to take it to its logical extreme.

This is something that studying Christian theology sort of forced upon me; I was a practicing Christian once. But when it comes down to it, God is apparently an out-and-out asshole. The doctrine of original sin and being cast out of the Garden is the story of God blaming the people who were, morally, least cuplable for what happened. God never really got better about that kind of thing. The ultimate proof of this awaits in the lake of fire, where souls burn in torment for eternity, regardless of their crimes or whether God even bothered to check He had gotten His word to them and they even had a chance. I don't care what your crimes were. Even murder and rape, for which I would happily revoke your membership in the human race. Eternal torture is simply not moral. No crime is worthy of being burned alive forever. A week, a month, a year, perhaps even a decade. But not forever.

So put simply God is evil. If He exists, then we have a moral duty to rebel against Him, to free ourselves from His control and to destroy Him that He may never harm another.

I now coinsider it my moral duty to kill you.

Careful with the death threats... :nervous:

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You got everything mixed up. What the hell did they teach you anyway?

Why don't you ask which sect of christianity teaches this and that rather than throw insults against persons and their former denomination?

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First, Hell is a foreign concept that we have no idea what it's actually like. It's described like bruning in the lake of fire, but that's just colorfull description. You can't experience Hell while alive, so no human can really describe it.

The concept of hell varies from a literal place of eternal suffering to eternal separation from God to simply death of soul, nonexistence, so I don't think a theological discussion of hell's concept is in the best interests of this discussion to stay even remotely interesting.

The point in fact is not the nature of "hell" in itself at all. The point is that religions have a bunch of criteria that vary from religion and sect to other, but each have one thing in common - the criteria are dictated by the God in each religion. Supposedly, if one follows these criteria, one gains the benefit of eternal pleasant afterlife, while not doing so will result in not getting the benefits, and in some religions there are specific unpleasantness (hell) resulting from not following the rules.

The criteria itself varies from simply accepting JC as one's personal saviour and having faith in him, to following exact rules and rituals during one's life, but the basic idea is similar.

Now the question is, why would any of these criteria be accurate, and if one of them is, why would God place such criteria for his creatures to pass or fail? What would be the motive in that?

Ironically, even though I don't have any faith in existence of any divine creature, I have faith that should one of those exist, they wouldn't have such asinine requirements for their creations...


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Secondly, you dont' ahev to be Crhistian to go to heaven.  I don't know where you got that from.

Yes well that is very much subject to debate between different religions and branches of christianity even. But I think it might have something to do with Jesus saying that the only way to kingdom of heaven is through him... interpretations of that and other similar quotes have been various to say the least. :rolleyes:

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Offline TrashMan

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Bottom line - trying to use logical construct and deduction for a debate like this is pretty much useless.

Logic can't do God justice. It's like trying to contain a ocean in a small glass. It makes no sense. Not to mention that God is above logic so the whole thing is rather moot.
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Offline Angelus

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I started to write a long post, but the woman in the red dress ( that for some strange reason only i can see ) told me NOT to participate in this discussion.
It would be unhealthy for me. :nervous:

 

Offline Polpolion

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Bottom line - trying to use logical construct and deduction for a debate like this is pretty much useless.

Logic can't do God justice. It's like trying to contain a ocean in a small glass. It makes no sense. Not to mention that God is above logic so the whole thing is rather moot.

Yes, logic and God don't mix well because logic is the study of truth.  :p

 

Offline TrashMan

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No it's because God is above logic, the ABSOLUTE truth. :p
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Offline Turambar

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No it's because God is above logic, the ABSOLUTE truth. :p

That's a real funny way to present arguably the world's biggest lie.
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Offline Solatar

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The first post quote's author assumes that good and evil are two equal and opposite entities. If you assume that, then you have dualism, which Christianity doesn't believe in. In fact, none of the three major monotheistic religions (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) believe that evil is an entity at all.

This post was going to be considerably longer, but I just didn't feel like it....

EDIT: as for the "all non-Christians go to hell" argument.

God is absolute truth if he is absolute good. Therefore, any person searching for truth is searching for God. I am reminded of the scene in Faust where he is saved; God can't bring himself to damn somebody just for trying to better himself, even if he shook of God to do so.

That'd be my rationale for why I think non-Christians can all get into heaven...it'd be kind of an asshole God if he was that exclusive.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2009, 01:09:33 pm by Solatar »

 

Offline Polpolion

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God is absolute truth if he is absolute good. Therefore, any person searching for truth is searching for God.

 :confused: wat

 

Offline Solatar

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That'd be a Christian rationalization for why non-Christians (by Christianity's own rules) aren't automatically damned. If you don't believe in God, then obviously you don't believe he is truth or good...or anything.


 

Offline karajorma

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I actually don't care about this idea. Jesus was straight up enough for me :)

Jesus is about the only decent thing in the Bible. If Christians ditched everything but the gospels the world would be a much better place. It's when they try to follow the other bollocks that we have problems.


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I fail to see what point you are trying to make here.


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Not as if i claim, as the bible claims (the fellowship part). All i did earlier was make a comparison to natural reality and reality interpretted through the bible which included a scenario of mankind being created by Him. God through my understanding doesn't want a bunch of yes men. Just because there was many christian yes men in history doesn't mean that God wanted them.

I'm not saying he wanted them. Maybe you should try reading my entire argument again before responding to it. Christians like yourself claim that God made man to see who would have faith in him. I'm turning that argument on it's head and saying what if God made man to see who wouldn't. What if the whole point was to figure out who was stupid enough to blindly follow him and discard them instead of discarding those who didn't have faith.

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God wanting yes men sure would seem retarded and definitely counter intuitive to christianity itself (reminds me of catholicism versus calvinism back in the day).

Of course it's retarded. That's my entire point.


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God likes people to have faith in him and tests the faith of those who do have faith in Him.


That's the angle the Bible puts on it. My point is that what if God deliberately said that and the real test is whether or not people will blindly follow the bible. What if the test isn't "Do you believe in God?" but "Do you believe in Love thy neighbour enough to realise that large  parts of the bible are nothing to do with love?"

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One of the hardest things to do as man is to let go of everything and follow one thing. Being an every day human, it's not easy believing in something you can't see, and even harder to believe that something you can't see is going to take care of you.

No it isn't. There wouldn't be half as many cults if it were hard to persuade people to believe in any old bollocks. If some hack sci-fi writer can convince a bunch of rich, well educated people that a galactic emperor sent everyone alive to Earth in rockets that looked like wingless DC10s, stacked them up in a volcano, nuked it and that the trauma from that is the cause of suffering in this world, then getting people to believe in an invisible man in the sky should be a piece of piss.

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My mom doesn't like me because of this. My dad does like me because of this. This being the telling them when they're wrong about something and not parroting their ideals back to them. Most people can't handle when they're wrong, even when they know they're wrong. Parents are like this much of the time too. My mother would very much prefer me to be a non thinking religious automoton. That way she can continue leading me so i'll be a carbon copy of her.

And this is good parenting you think?

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Following the theory that God is a god and is greater than mankind, he's never wrong and also would surely not tolerate some of the things He does being called wrong by a lesser being.

And once again you've missed the basic premise of my argument and argued about some tiny facet of it. You're assuming that God told you the truth.

When you tell your kid about Santa Claus and they say that they don't believe in him because there's no way that he could visit everyone's house on Christmas night wouldn't you be proud of them for having seen through your lie? Similarly wouldn't you be somewhat disappointed in your 15 year old if they still believed in Santa?

I find it hilarious that most Christians are willing to believe that life is meant to be a test but completely and utterly refuse to ever think about what it might be a test of and instead blindly assume it must be a test of faith.

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Most of what gods do are going to be interpretted as mysterious because we won't always comprehend what they're up to.

Certainly an interesting comment from someone who has just spent most of their post telling me what God wants, likes or thinks. Especially given that it's aimed at the person saying that maybe God doesn't want what you think he wants.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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I now coinsider it my moral duty to kill you.

You got everything mixed up. What the hell did they teach you anyway?
First, Hell is a foreign concept that we have no idea what it's actually like. It's described like bruning in the lake of fire, but that's just colorfull description. You can't experience Hell while alive, so no human can really describe it.
Secondly, you dont' ahev to be Crhistian to go to heaven.  I don't know where you got that from.

A wise man once observed to me about arguments such as yours that "Sense makes stupid be knowing."

Hell is eternal torment. That's pretty concrete. And no one, ever, for any reason, deserves eternal torment. I don't care if that means just having to listen to someone rapidly clicking a pen for millenia or the lake of fire. It's not moral to eternally punish someone in any fashion.

As for the second point, this a subject of contention within Christian philosophy itself. However there are enough people who lived and died in, say, New Guniea before Europeans showed up whose religions included cannablistic activities or other things that are perfectly capable of earning you a spot in eternal damnation. So it really doesn't matter whether all non-Christians do or do not go to hell, plenty of people never even had a chance to reform, and this is an omnipotent deity who could have given it to them.

Thus why if God exists, He must be dealt with. Harshly.
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Offline TrashMan

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I find it hilarious that most Christians are willing to believe that life is meant to be a test but completely and utterly refuse to ever think about what it might be a test of and instead blindly assume it must be a test of faith.

Kaj, what you fail to see is that many believe in a thruthfull God - ergo, He does not lie.
A God that lied wouldn't be their God, so the whole point is kinda moot.



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Hell is eternal torment

It's actually described more closely as being away from God. REALLY away. And its' very much debatable if it's actually eternal or just described as such.


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As for the second point, this a subject of contention within Christian philosophy itself. However there are enough people who lived and died in, say, New Guniea before Europeans showed up whose religions included cannablistic activities or other things that are perfectly capable of earning you a spot in eternal damnation. So it really doesn't matter whether all non-Christians do or do not go to hell, plenty of people never even had a chance to reform, and this is an omnipotent deity who could have given it to them.

I'm curious. Exactly how do you know who went to hell in the past and who didn't?
For all you know 99% of all people might be in heaven.
You don't really know what goes up there.

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Thus why if God exists, He must be dealt with. Harshly.
:lol:
Good luck with that.
However, I'd advise you to strive for something you're more likely to actually accomplish..like let's say - destroying energy, time and space. :lol:

Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline S-99

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I'd rather have kids who told me I was wrong than ones who simply parroted my ideals back to me because they'd never thought about them themselves. Surely every parent wants their child to be able to think for themselves rather than simply being a clone of themselves.
My mom doesn't like me because of this. My dad does like me because of this. This being the telling them when they're wrong about something and not parroting their ideals back to them. Most people can't handle when they're wrong, even when they know they're wrong. Parents are like this much of the time too. My mother would very much prefer me to be a non thinking religious automoton. That way she can continue leading me so i'll be a carbon copy of her. I could tell this was happening when i was on innocent dates with non christian girls (my mothers conditioning lead me to feel guilty for no reason after many dates until i thought about why). Most parents i've seen don't care if they're kids think for themselves. I've met many people who are my age or younger who exhibited the intelligence to think for themselves. I do my best to encourage people to think for themselves, of course many don't succeed or don't succeed for long most of the time falling back into their non thinking habits where they were most comfortable. Only smart parents are going to be able to handle hearing from their kids when they're wrong and these will be the parents who will teach their kids thinking for themselves. Following the theory that God is a god and is greater than mankind, he's never wrong and also would surely not tolerate some of the things He does being called wrong by a lesser being. Also in the bible God has great relationships with those who know how to think (God makes best use of those people).

I bolded the key sentences. My response was based on the generalization that most parents don't care if they're kids think for themselves and that only smart parents will be able to handle hearing from their kids when they're wrong and that these smart parents will teach their kids to think for themselves. I was also pointing out that the parents who teach their kids to think for themselves is good parenting as opposed to small example of the psychological bs of my mom trying to raise me to be a carbon copy of her.

Also i wasn't responding to you just about parenting because you weren't originally talking about parenting, but questioning as God's children...wouldn't He prefer those who can think for themselves. I ended up concluding that yes, God does like smart people sort of like how smart parents like to have smart kids. And the last note being that as God and He's greater than His creations you shouldn't call Him wrong because He knows best (that last note i should have just quoted from scripture "do not test the Lord thy God."). God makes amazing use of smart people.

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I fail to see what point you are trying to make here. 
You said memebot :lol:
« Last Edit: February 02, 2009, 04:50:40 am by S-99 »
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Offline karajorma

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So where is it then? Cause I'm not seeing it. :p

Your entire paragraph was based on taking my comment about most parents wanting their children to be the best they can be and to not falsely limit their abilities. Instead of seeing that it was obvious I meant most good parents you decided to fixate on that single missing word, completely ignoring the point I was making.

And then you complain I take things out of context? :lol:


I find it hilarious that most Christians are willing to believe that life is meant to be a test but completely and utterly refuse to ever think about what it might be a test of and instead blindly assume it must be a test of faith.

Kaj, what you fail to see is that many believe in a thruthfull God - ergo, He does not lie.
A God that lied wouldn't be their God, so the whole point is kinda moot.

But what evidence do you have for this? The argument is completely circular. You base your impressions on the nature of God as always truthful based on the Bible and you base the Bible as truthful based on the fact that it is the word of God,

More importantly though, God doesn't have to actually lie. He simply doesn't have to correct it when humans screw things up. Again I find it hilarious that the Christians on this thread have spent so long commenting on God respecting free will but assume that God would descend from the heavens with a giant marker pen to correct the bible if someone screwed it up.

To send someone to Earth and never actually mention the stuff that was wrong seems more in line with the way I'd expect such a God to act.
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Offline S-99

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You should reread my previous post. I didn't think i hit post so soon, until i noticed that the post button said save.

EDIT: Actually i think i hit modify on my previous post to grab some text. I posted not in order. Sorry about that.

God does act, He works through people. An example is sort of like when you need money because you're in debt, and praying to God for a solution. Next thing you know there's a good job opening that you get hired for which lets you get the money to pay off your debt. The working through people part of this would be say the boss of the job fired the really crappy dude who use to fill the position now making it open for you. This is normal circumstance of the job market that there will be openings eventually so you can get hired and make money. On the coincidence part it ended up being the exact solution you were praying about.

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My mom doesn't like me because of this. My dad does like me because of this. This being the telling them when they're wrong about something and not parroting their ideals back to them. Most people can't handle when they're wrong, even when they know they're wrong. Parents are like this much of the time too. My mother would very much prefer me to be a non thinking religious automoton. That way she can continue leading me so i'll be a carbon copy of her.
And this is good parenting you think?
You accused me of not reading your whole entire post so i accused you of the same thing here. Since in the original post i wasn't talking about just parenting like you were also not talking about just parenting...yeah you took this out of context because i didn't include the word "good" anywhere.The example of my mom desiring me to be a carbon copy of her and how i didn't like it also suggests that raising children to be carbon copies of their parents is not good parenting. I didn't say i liked being a carbon copy of her either. I implied my dad likes me because i think for myself and that my mom doesn't like me so much because of this.

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Most of what gods do are going to be interpretted as mysterious because we won't always comprehend what they're up to.
Certainly an interesting comment from someone who has just spent most of their post telling me what God wants, likes or thinks. Especially given that it's aimed at the person saying that maybe God doesn't want what you think he wants.
The bible tells you plenty of what God wants, is like, and to a degree thinks. Of course the bible isn't going to say everything about God.
Every pilot's goal is to rise up in the ranks and go beyond their purpose to a place of command on a very big ship. Like the colossus; to baseball bat everyone.

SMBFD

I won't use google for you.

An0n sucks my Jesus ring.