Author Topic: Epicurus Quote  (Read 53821 times)

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Offline Scotty

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It is probable that after this, some cataclysm came about and returned the culture level to stone age. Dwarves and halflings probably were assimilated into race of Men or died out, leaving little evidence of the existence of the old civilizations.

But you're forgetting that I have first bronze and first farming.  Even if it had existed, there would have been signs.  Entire periods of existence do not simply disappear. (yes, I have read the rest of your post.  I'm being specific here.)

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Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, as some would say. However while that is true, it is always good to remember that absence of evidence to contrary doesn't make random assertions true. Burden of proof is always on the claimants.

See my modified post (sorry </embarrassed> again.)

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At least they are plenty contradictory to the existence of the Divine Master Plan. God seems to be plenty good at cocking his plans up. First with the Eden debacle with the snake, then letting the world get into state where a purge was needed to restore some kind of plan, then it still didn't work out so he had to have a son and send him to wipe the humanity's collective ass clean, so to speak.

That is where the (?)issue of free will comes into play.  God gave man free will so they could choose to serve Him.  Some did not (hell, most do not now.).  It's not that He let it get to that state, we (man) let it get to that state, and so God *ahem* cleansed it.

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There's no proof that dragons don't exist, for example.
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leaving little evidence of the existence of the old civilizations.

Or no evidence at all.  There is none, zero, ziltch. 
Similarly to earlier in your post, absence of evidence can also mean absence of evidence.

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The point is, if someone really believes that something, anything, is true, it's really hard for them to view the matter objectively.

But, by your criteria, anyone who can view the matter objectively will already not believe, therefore is also biased in favor of their own beliefs.

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what makes a prophet different from false prophet?

These days?  That there are no more prophets.  Christianity and Islam agree on that one.   :eek2:

EDIT:  Dang, I have to get off for the day.  Try not to leave me too completely out until tomorrow.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Seriously, you think that all matter came from an infinitely dense and hot speck of a substance and exploded to form the universe and everything we see in it?  And that then, after stars and planets had formed and cooled enough, life just automatically built itself through a series of self-replicating molecules up until present day?  Forgive me for not agreeing with your viewpoint (entirely).

Really don't want to get involved in this. But I do want to comment:

All of these processes have been observed occurring in nature, and in the case of the assembly and self-replication, in the lab.

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Group hallucinations simply do not happen. 

Sure they do. Tanganyika Laughter Epidemic. Mass hysteric behavior is common.

Heaven's Gate. Dozens of people witnessed the approach of an alien spacecraft and killed themselves to reach it. Or the Mothman. This stuff occurs.

As for the Flood issue -- common elements in human mythology can be explained either by a confounding variable, early myths that spread, or by the simple fact that there were some really massive floods in the geological past.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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The flood is an interesting case in that it is also equally impossible to prove as it is biblically described from geologic evidence, because the way it was described, it should not have left any such evidence. There is probably a very simple reason for this, unfortunately: even at the point at which biblical representations were being written and edited, a great deal was known about the behavior of water and how it moved dirt around, picked it up, and dropped it. This is because such information has great agricultural value.

Thus, certain methods of describing the flood would have been proveably false even in that day and age. The way it was described, it would have left too small an impact even to prove with our knowledge of geology. But we have the fossil record for that.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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It is probable that after this, some cataclysm came about and returned the culture level to stone age. Dwarves and halflings probably were assimilated into race of Men or died out, leaving little evidence of the existence of the old civilizations.

But you're forgetting that I have first bronze and first farming.

That is true according to our observations. However, playing the role of Silmarillionistic preacher, this doesn't mean that there couldn't have been unknown civilizations before the known stone age.

Ice ages and geological changes tend to be good at destroying evidence...


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Even if it had existed, there would have been signs.  Entire periods of existence do not simply disappear. (yes, I have read the rest of your post.  I'm being specific here.)

That's true, of course. Unless Eru Ilúvatar or more likely some of the Maiar decided to remove the evidence... :p


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At least they are plenty contradictory to the existence of the Divine Master Plan. God seems to be plenty good at cocking his plans up. First with the Eden debacle with the snake, then letting the world get into state where a purge was needed to restore some kind of plan, then it still didn't work out so he had to have a son and send him to wipe the humanity's collective ass clean, so to speak.

That is where the (?)issue of free will comes into play.  God gave man free will so they could choose to serve Him.  Some did not (hell, most do not now.).  It's not that He let it get to that state, we (man) let it get to that state, and so God *ahem* cleansed it.

So is it acceptable for a teacher or a parent to let their children or students get into a mess where they have to be killed or at least given a severe beating to purge them of their stupidity?

Intervention at earlier time might have yielded positive results. But, accorting to the bible, God consciously allowed the situation to deteriorate to the point where it was apparently necessary to open the floodgates. Apparently, an almighty being considered it necessary to kill most of the land animals on Earth... So the question is, why allow free will if you're going to kill offenders anyway? Actually, sounds kinda like the argument that Islam is a religion of peace because it freely allows you to either convert, become a slave, or die.

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...leaving little evidence of the existence of the old civilizations.

Or no evidence at all.  There is none, zero, ziltch. 
Similarly to earlier in your post, absence of evidence can also mean absence of evidence.

Do you mean that absence of evidence can mean evidence of absence?

No, it can't. Not really. Absence of evidence is good grounds not to believe in something, but it is never evidence of absence. It's always possible that dragons exist. Or existed. Or that God exists. It is improbable because there's no hard evidence supporting it, only N'th hand claims of information received from above, and no assurances whatsoever that any of this information in any form is really from the source it claims to be from.

Like I said, it's easy for me to write a piece that says it's a message from God. It would have been equally easy in the past when holy books were written. They might have been written under the influence, but I deeply suspect that influence was something else than God, possibly something more chemically based.

The writers might have even believed they wrote the word of God. That doesn't mean that they really were receiving signals from above any more than the "automatic writers" are receiving signals from extra-terrestrials (which I believe is an analogous phenomenon to the Prophets of the olden days).

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The point is, if someone really believes that something, anything, is true, it's really hard for them to view the matter objectively.

But, by your criteria, anyone who can view the matter objectively will already not believe, therefore is also biased in favor of their own beliefs.

No, it means that anyone who can view the matter objectively will not believe in it for the sake of belief only. Objective view takes into account more than just what the source claims. Of course the Bible says it's from God, otherwise it wouldn't be a "Holy Book". But it never went through any kind of peer review program, so to speak. The regulators were all members of the church, the biggest edits having been done by the Councils of Nicaea that affirmed the canonical books of the Bible and left unsuitable materials out.

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what makes a prophet different from false prophet?

These days?  That there are no more prophets.  Christianity and Islam agree on that one.   :eek2:

I'm not talking only about these days. If Jeremiah acknowledges and warns about wrong prophets, how exactly is it certain that any of the prophets in the Bible were actually receiving the word of God (or same god even, assuming there were many of them)? Obviously an established religion doesn't want people to come and rock the boat with newly revealed divine information, so they quite often "close the door" so to speak, to keep established dogma safe from change since change might be a bit unconvincing: How is it that now this is the truth but yesteryear it was a lie? Even the most uneducated peons would start asking questions at that point. Therefore main religions can't really change, they can just undergo reformations which tend to be bloody and profound.

And yes, if you read between the lines you might notice some marxist undertones there. Not that I would have much in common with him, but I do view religions first and foremost as mass control devices for the (religious) authorities. Islam being the worst in this time because religious authorities there tend to also have significant secular power, which is unfortunate. Roman Catholic Church used to be like that but after the reformation they kidna lost their grasp on secular politics (which allowed growth of secular philosophy and enabled Europe to develope much faster than the rest of the world in terms of natural sciences and technology). Of course, cults are the culmination of control over members, and go way beyond any religion in that sense. In fact I would say that the only thing that separates a cult from religion is the amount of control it demands from its members, and the amount of those members.

Re: Flood.

It is widely accepted historical consensus that some kind of cataclysmic flood event did happen at some point in the history of Middle-East or close by, and that some records of it have survived to find their ways to Gilgamesh epic and the Bible, and other records as well. This, however, does not mean that everything in the Bible would be equally accurate historically, and it means even less considering the source of the text being divine or not.

There certainly never was a flood of the magnitude it is described in the Bible engulfing the whole world in several kilometres of water, so the accuracy of the details is quite suspicious. Flash floods aren't entirely uncommon, although it is possible that the flood in question might have been quite unique, mainly the filling of the basin of the Black Sea when the Strait of Bosphorus was formed (it's the closest thing that would match the description of incredibly widespread catastrophic flood, but there are doubts that it was the case).


Something regarding abiogenesis and formation of life: Ever heard of the anthropic principle? It basically says that the universe is as we observe it to be, because it's the only way it can be in order to produce sentient life of our kind. It doesn't say that universe was designed or made to be suitable of generating the life as we know it, and us, it says that if the Universe had been a bit different, we wouldn't have developed at all. In a multiverse interpretation of quantum physics this means that formation of life is not a big wonder at all and that there are almost infinite amounts of alternate realities where life can never spontaneously emerge because of those worlds lack the prerequisites for, say, molecules to form long chains in the way carbon does. No long molecules, no proteins, no organic life.

It is entirely possible that we are here because universe happens to be the way it is, without no divine (or infernal for that matter) entities affecting the processes of Universe.

As a slightly related tangent, the ancient Greeks had a very interesting way of putting religious and mundane world together; they called it cosmos; basically translates as "place of order". Despite their polytheistic beliefs of a pantheon of strong beings living in Olympos and affecting the life and times of people on Earth, they all lived in cosmos and they all had to obey the same basic cosmic rules. We would call them laws of nature or physics. This view of world, incidentally, was probably what triggered the surge in natural philosophy in ancient Greek; other places were still using the Gods of the Holes to explain everything, while the Greeks figured that even their Gods were part of the same reality and thus couldn't simply be attached to every unknown thing. Or at least the people who dedicated their lives to thinking these things through did.
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Offline karajorma

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A grand total of two people have been resurrected.  Jesus, and Jesus's brother Lazarus.

It's bad enough that we have to explain science to you but do we really have to explain your own holy book to you?

Lazarus wasn't Jesus' brother.

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God didn't do that back then.

But he certainly knew he had the power to do so and chose not to do it. That's what makes it a dick move.

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Oh, I dunno, maybe NOT giving him more kids.  That would pretty much take the cake.
:rolleyes:

Oh so because he didn't do an even bigger dick move that makes it okay?

Suppose I make a bet with you that I can break into your house. I walk in, break your alarm off the wall, shoot your dog and then walk out. I use the money I win from you to buy you a new dog.

Find me one person who wouldn't say that was a dick move. Your argument is akin to saying it wasn't a dick move cause I could have not bought you a new dog, Or cause I ddn't burn your house down on the way out.

Shooting your dog is a dick move. Giving you a new dog doesn't bring the old one back. Your dog is dead.

God had a choice and decided not to bring Job's children back to life. That's an A grade dick move.

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Furthermore, notice how Job does NOT blaspheme against God even then.


So either Job is the kind of heartless bastard who didn't care that his children died or he's so used to the fact that God is a dick that killing his children is within the accepted bounds of dickery from God and he doesn't feel the need to get cross about it.

But just cause he isn't annoyed doesn't prevent it from being a dick move. Killing Job's animals etc is one thing but his children are free willed individuals with their own souls. And God was willing to let Satan kill them just to win a bet.

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God let Satan do everything in order to win a bet

Except kill or hurt Job, you missed that part.

I didn't miss it at all. If Satan had killed Job he couldn't win the bet now could he? Pretty hard for Job to blaspheme when he's dead sn't it? :rolleyes:

Unless you want to claim Satan also has the power to raise the dead so he could bring him back to do it.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 05:01:06 am by karajorma »
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Offline TrashMan

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Harumph....let me just state, once and again, that there is NO WAY that you can prove God doesn't exit. Nada. Niet.

Nor can you prove that your logic is applicable to God, nor that it's infallible, nor that your starting assumptions are correct. Which leaves us with what exaclty? Nothing at all.

 
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Offline Jeff Vader

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Harumph....let me just state, once and again, that there is NO WAY that you can prove God doesn't exit. Nada. Niet.
I believe that there is no God. Your anti-logic does not stand a chance against it.
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23:40 < achillion > wait no
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14:08 < achillion > there's too much talk of butts and dongs in here
14:08 < achillion > the level of discourse has really plummeted
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Offline karajorma

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Similarly there is no way you can prove he exists either. So the sensible solution is to proceed as if he doesn't. There is as much evidence for God as any other major religion after all.
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Offline Scotty

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So the sensible solution is to proceed as if he doesn't

So that even if he does, you go to Hell, and if he doesn't, you just stop existing.

I find both of those choices to be of less than perfect solutions.  I would reference Pascal's Wager, but I'm pretty sure that if you think that, it wouldn't help anyway.  For those people reading the thread, but not engaging in the conversation, Pascal's Wager is thus:

paraphrased a bit, but mostly still here (let me know if I leave out something important)

1)  If God exists, he is incomprehensible

2)  God exists, or He does not

3)  Everyone must pick one or the other

4)  You have two things to lose: the true and the good, and two things to stake: your reason and your will. Your reason is no more shocked in choosing one rather than the other, since you must of necessity choose.  But your happiness? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager, then, without hesitation that He is.

5)   if there were an infinity of chances, of which one only would be for you, you would still be right in wagering one to win two, and you would act stupidly, being obliged to play, by refusing to stake one life against three at a game in which out of an infinity of chances there is one for you,

Basically all summed up:  the existence or non-existence of God is not provable by reason.  Since reason cannot answer, one must "wager" by guessing or making a leap of faith.  That being the case, one then must decide it according to their happiness... by weighing the gain and loss in believing that God exists. He contends the wise decision is to wager that God exists, since "If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing", meaning one can gain eternal life if God exists, but if not, one will be no worse off in death than if one had not believed.


« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 03:35:47 pm by Scotty »

 

Offline Rhymes

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*looks up*

You seem to be missing something there, buddy.  :rolleyes:
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Offline iamzack

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We did Pascal's Wager in the other thread.

It only works if there's only one religion that says "follow us or you burn."

The whole thing crumbles into nothing once you realize that your particular flavour of Christianity is not the only alternative to god's nonexistence.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Pascal's Wager is a fallacy that assumes that the dogma of Hell (or other negative consequences) is true if God exists.

In fact it is valid if and only if God exists AND there are negative consequences for not believing in him. So the wager doesn't actually say anything about whether or not believing in God is the safest bet, it says that if you believe there are (or might be) negative consequences on believing in God, you should believe in God, which isn't very strong argument as you surely can see.

I could just as well postulate the following, let's call it Herra Tohtori's Wager; believing in God might have negative consequences (which actually is more accurate assumption than the one made in Pascal's Wager and has actual observable evidence in many occasions, though not all), so you shouldn't believe in God because it's safer not to.

This is, of course, valid if and only if there are negative consequences for believing in God. Are there? That is a totally different question than whether God exists or not. And same applies to Pascal's Wager.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 03:40:41 pm by Herra Tohtori »
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Offline Scotty

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Sorry, pressed enter and it hit "post" and not skip line.

 

Offline Galemp

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There is as much evidence for God as any other major religion after all.
That's pretty much my position... if someone says "Do you believe in god?" the proper response is "Which one?"

As far as Pascal's Wager goes... no matter what you believe, you must believe that at least two thirds of the planet is wrong. It ought to put your beliefs into perspective.

So, anyway, did we ever come to a resolution on the Epicurian Paradox? Because I actually have an answer that should please parties of all beliefs.
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Offline Scotty

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It only works if there's only one religion that says "follow us or you burn."

Have any of you read the rest of the Pensees?  That would be the rest of Pascal's notes.  In it he looks at how mankind fares with and without belief in God.  One the one hand, he explores man's inherent wretchedness without God, then shows the opposite.  Throughout the rest of the writings, he comes to the conclusion that Christianity is the most likely to be correct of any religion.

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your particular flavour of Christianity


They read the same book, and most if not all (possible exceptions for Calvinism) agree on how to get there.  Catholocism is more ritualized, to be sure, and others are less so.  The particular "flavor" of Christianity is irrelevant.

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believing in God might have negative consequences
*snip*
so you shouldn't believe in God because it's safer not to.

Such as?  If there is not God, you just die.  Nothing else, zip, nada.  If there is, and you do not believe or follow, you are separated from Him (a.k.a. Hell).  If there is, and you do believe and follow, you go to heaven.  What negative consequences could there be?  (Wow, that sounds just like 'what else could go wrong'  :lol:)

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That's what makes it a dick move.
even bigger dick move
that was a dick move
it wasn't a dick move
That's an A grade dick move
God is a dick
being a dick move

You say 'dick' seven times in your last post.  Could you at least try to be polite?  Maybe follow the Golden Rule (:lol:).

 

Offline castor

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He contends the wise decision is to wager that God exists, since "If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing", meaning one can gain eternal life if God exists, but if not, one will be no worse off in death than if one had not believed.
This never made any sense to me. How can one "decide" to believe something? You either (think you) know something or you go by the gut feeling,.
In this case you can't know (and you know it), so the only true belief is by emotion. But if one decides to believe.. assuming God exists, wouldn't it be pissed off by such pretense?

 

Offline Scotty

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To Galemp:  I had an answer a couple pages ago that no one seemed to even notice.  I re-posted it in one of my earlier posts, but I can post it again here.

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Okay, thought I would re-align the discussion a little bit (feel free to continue as we have been, bit I wanted to actually discus the reason for the thread  ).


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Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.

My big problem with this is that it assumes that if God does not do every single thing in his power to keep anything that could possibly be construed as bad from happening to you, he is malevolent.  To illustrate my point:  Would you call a parent that does not keep their child from every single scrape or bruise, that does not allow them to experience both aspects of the world malevolent?  We would be unable to fathom the concept of good if nothing evil or bad ever happened to us.  Some people may critisize me for saying this, but pain is one of the world's best teachers.  By seeing what evil or bad(ness?) is, we develop more of an appreciation for goodness.

Is he able, but not (always) willing?
Then he is a teacher.
  :blah:  (I wish they had a [profound] smiley)

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"Do you believe in god?" the proper response is "Which one?"

Looks like I posted a couple seconds after you.  Check reply #154.

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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It only works if there's only one religion that says "follow us or you burn."

Have any of you read the rest of the Pensees?  That would be the rest of Pascal's notes.  In it he looks at how mankind fares with and without belief in God.  One the one hand, he explores man's inherent wretchedness without God, then shows the opposite.  Throughout the rest of the writings, he comes to the conclusion that Christianity is the most likely to be correct of any religion.

Nah. Religion has nothing to do with wretchedness, it's a cultural feature. Faith in God is not guaranteed to make the culture any less wretched (just take a look at catholic church before the reformations and Islamic world in general), and faith is not necessary for reducing the wretchedness of a culture.


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your particular flavour of Christianity


They read the same book, and most if not all (possible exceptions for Calvinism) agree on how to get there.  Catholocism is more ritualized, to be sure, and others are less so.  The particular "flavor" of Christianity is irrelevant.

But different sects of Christianity have different criteria on getting to heaven as well as plenty differences in theology otherwise as well. Mormonism for example is pretty much like scientology but without the celebrities.

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believing in God might have negative consequences
*snip*
so you shouldn't believe in God because it's safer not to.

Such as?  If there is not God, you just die.  Nothing else, zip, nada.  If there is, and you do not believe or follow, you are separated from Him (a.k.a. Hell).  If there is, and you do believe and follow, you go to heaven.  What negative consequences could there be?  (Wow, that sounds just like 'what else could go wrong'  :lol:)

Well, I might believe in God so much that I might accept any instruction from a religious authority (after all they do have God to guide them so obviously they are right, right?), and go conquer the Holy Land back, maybe cut off some infidels' heads along with several thousand other crusaders. Or I might believe in God so much that I explode myself on the street to honour him. There are plenty of examples where faith in God has led to rather grievous consequences.

Not all consequences need to be post-mortem. But as far as those go, God's criteria for getting rewards might not be faith after all, so just having faith for faith's sake (or in hope of avoiding punishment and gaining salvation) might not actually be what he wants after all.

In addition, the assumption that not believing in God would result in separation from him is just that, an assumption. No one knows that any more than whether or not God exists in the first place.

I would also like to point out that Herra Tohtori's wager is not meant to be taken any more seriously than Pascal's Wager; it was meant to point out the logical fallacy in Pascal's Wager (false dilemma).

A lot more serious proposition would be Atheist's Wager which could be also called Person's Wager since it makes plenty of sense to anyone regardless of your personal beliefs, though it does have it's own criticism.
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Offline karajorma

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That's what makes it a dick move.
even bigger dick move
that was a dick move
it wasn't a dick move
That's an A grade dick move
God is a dick
being a dick move

You say 'dick' seven times in your last post.  Could you at least try to be polite?  Maybe follow the Golden Rule (:lol:).

Given that he's a banned forum member I can flame him as much as I like. :p

The subject under discussion was whether or not God was a dick. Pretty hard to argue he is without using the word.

I notice you didn't actually refute the argument.
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Offline iamzack

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It only works if there's only one religion that says "follow us or you burn."

Have any of you read the rest of the Pensees?  That would be the rest of Pascal's notes.  In it he looks at how mankind fares with and without belief in God.  One the one hand, he explores man's inherent wretchedness without God, then shows the opposite.  Throughout the rest of the writings, he comes to the conclusion that Christianity is the most likely to be correct of any religion.

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your particular flavour of Christianity


They read the same book, and most if not all (possible exceptions for Calvinism) agree on how to get there.  Catholocism is more ritualized, to be sure, and others are less so.  The particular "flavor" of Christianity is irrelevant.

It definitely does matter. For example, the Westboro Baptist Church believe that everyone that is not part of the Westboro Baptist Church is going to hell.

I'm skeptical of this "Christianity is most likely to be right" nonsense. I do believe Mr. Pascal might be somewhat biased.
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