Author Topic: Epicurus Quote  (Read 53266 times)

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Offline Turambar

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I think god is a metaphor.
Metaphor phor what?

fear of change, ignorance of the natural world, oppression of people who aren't just like you
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Offline Ford Prefect

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"God is absence. God is the solitude of man."

--Who else but Sartre?
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline Wobble73

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"God is absence. God is the solitude of man."

--Who else but Sartre?

"God, the absent landlord" - Bill Hicks
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Offline IPAndrews

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Be warned: This site's admins stole 100s of hours of my work. They will do it to you.

 

Offline Ghostavo

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Actually, that's pretty much in context.  :P
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Offline TrashMan

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Just FYI - saying God sux, is stupid or similar things openly in front of religious people, is basicly like saying their mother is a whore in their faces. Not nice.

While you may argue that it's different or it's just your oppinion, let me say that:
- blacks suck is also an oppinion, yet you wouldn't yell that in public and make fun of black people, would you?
- no, for most religious pople it's not really different. God is called Heavenly Father for a reason.
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Offline castor

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:wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf: :wtf:
Isn't it still constrained by what is possible to happen in the universe? True omnipotence means that there are NO limits or constraints whatsoever.
Yeah, but if we think of universe as everything that IS, your extended omnipotence only comprises things that ARE NOT.

 

Offline karajorma

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Just FYI - saying God sux, is stupid or similar things openly in front of religious people, is basicly like saying their mother is a whore in their faces. Not nice.

While you may argue that it's different or it's just your oppinion, let me say that:
- blacks suck is also an oppinion, yet you wouldn't yell that in public and make fun of black people, would you?
- no, for most religious pople it's not really different. God is called Heavenly Father for a reason.

In the case of racism you can prove that it's an argument based on generalisations and stereotypes and therefore bollocks.

In the case of calling your mother a whore, if I can point out that I've seen sweaty sailors leaving her house and then handing over money on the doorstep then I might feel justified to point that fact out. Especially if people frequently tell me what a chaste woman she is.

Similarly this entire thread has been about how God is responsible (according to his own publicity!) of a series of astoundingly large dick moves. Either prove that they weren't or quit complaining when people say that they are dick moves.
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Offline TrashMan

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In the case of racism you can prove that it's an argument based on generalisations and stereotypes and therefore bollocks.


You can only prove it to me if I want you to.
Let's try another example shall we?
"All Jews are evil. The world is better off without them" - let's see you try to prove that one wrong, given how subjective good and evil are (according to a lot of people anyway)

Quote
In the case of calling your mother a whore, if I can point out that I've seen sweaty sailors leaving her house and then handing over money on the doorstep then I might feel justified to point that fact out. Especially if people frequently tell me what a chaste woman she is.

In which case you only got your own word and no real evidence, since you never checked what you saw. Were they really sailors? What did they do? What oyu do is called "jumping to conclusions".


Quote
Similarly this entire thread has been about how God is responsible (according to his own publicity!) of a series of astoundingly large dick moves. Either prove that they weren't or quit complaining when people say that they are dick moves.

How about this?
"You made a series of large dick moves. You suck. Prove to me you don't. Good luck." - now if I said something like that, do you really think you could prove to me otherwise?
God was guilty in your minds long before this thread ever started. Threads like these serve to find others who think likewise so one can get a pat on the back and a ego boost - at least that's the vibe I'm getting from them.
Whens the last time a religious members started a "God is wonderful thread"?  Strange, isn't it?
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Offline The E

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In the case of racism you can prove that it's an argument based on generalisations and stereotypes and therefore bollocks.


You can only prove it to me if I want you to.
Let's try another example shall we?
"All Jews are evil. The world is better off without them" - let's see you try to prove that one wrong, given how subjective good and evil are (according to a lot of people anyway)


Simple. Unless you have examined each and every Jew in the universe and found him/her to be evil (Whatever your definition of evil is), it is an overgeneralization and therefore quite possibly wrong.
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Offline iamzack

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The god of any major religion is a dick by human standards. That's pretty much all there is to it. You can argue for otherworldly standards for god all day long, but god is still basically a petulant child with a magnifying glass and a whole planet full of ants.

And you know what? I don't like jews, blacks, OR your mother either. So there.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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You can only prove it to me if I want you to.

And there, there is the heart of the matter. You admit, in so many words, that you are not open to rational thought! Like the man who believes he is Napeleon, you cannot be reasoned with because you are unwilling to reason!

The downward spiral is amazing, you've gone from admitting this is not something you can argue rationally to admitting you're not even rational at all.

Let's try another example shall we?
"All Jews are evil. The world is better off without them" - let's see you try to prove that one wrong, given how subjective good and evil are (according to a lot of people anyway)

This doesn't prove anything. You've actually used a racist example trying to rebut a remark disproving you on grounds of racism, which is the height of folly. It's like you didn't even read it somehow.

How about this?
"You made a series of large dick moves. You suck. Prove to me you don't. Good luck." - now if I said something like that, do you really think you could prove to me otherwise?

Prove to you otherwise? No, because you are by your own admission incapable of rational argumentation on this issue or any other. But could I prove to Kara otherwise? I'm almost certain of it. Unless, of course, he turns out to be correct and I did make a large series of dick moves. In that case no amount of rational argument will help because, well, there is no amount of it. You can't make a mountain out of nothing.

God was guilty in your minds long before this thread ever started.

Heaven forfend we actually have an opinion. But then, wtf does this matter to the discussion? Oh wait. That's right. It doesn't.

Threads like these serve to find others who think likewise so one can get a pat on the back and a ego boost - at least that's the vibe I'm getting from them.
Whens the last time a religious members started a "God is wonderful thread"?  Strange, isn't it?

One might think they didn't have a case. Craaaaazy, huh? But, in any case, this is a Non Sequitor, and unrelated to the argument at hand. Thus, we should ignore any further attempt by you to extend this line of thought, because it's bull****.

That's "Bull****, n.: The art of deceit through obfustication."
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 02:16:51 pm by NGTM-1R »
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Offline karajorma

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You can only prove it to me if I want you to.
Let's try another example shall we?
"All Jews are evil. The world is better off without them" - let's see you try to prove that one wrong, given how subjective good and evil are (according to a lot of people anyway)

Don't have to. We have actual Jewish members on this board so your comment would constitute a flame and be banworthy for that alone. In fact the main reason why racism results in a ban is nothing to do with the fact that it is racism (as repugnant as that is) and more to do with the fact that it is

a) Trolling
b) Flaming

If God wants to log on and claim that members of the board have been flaming him I'll be happy to tell people to knock it off. Soon as he proves that it is Him of course. :p

Quote
In which case you only got your own word and no real evidence, since you never checked what you saw. Were they really sailors? What did they do? What oyu do is called "jumping to conclusions".

His book claims he's great but is full of evidence of how he's a dick. That's like having your mum write an autobiography and mention that she's had sex with a lot of sailors and mention how her income is completely in cash yet never mention a job. If you want to claim that it's a conclusion I jumped to, fine. But given that her own evidence tallies with my own observation it's up to you to point out where I went wrong.

Unless you don't care that I think your mum's a whore. In which case why did you complain it was such an insult?

Quote
How about this?
"You made a series of large dick moves. You suck. Prove to me you don't. Good luck." - now if I said something like that, do you really think you could prove to me otherwise?

I'd agree with you. I've made all kinds of stupid mistakes in my life. However I can admit that, I'm not infallible, unlike God where a single dick move brings down the whole house of cards.

But yeah, I could at least prove what my motivations where for any of your comments.

Quote
Whens the last time a religious members started a "God is wonderful thread"?  Strange, isn't it?

Last September. GOatmaster has been fairly quiet since then so we haven't had more (he started others) but since he started posting again 3-4 days ago we might get another one soon.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Personally I consider claims like "God is evil" just as inaccurate as "God is good". We don't have first hand information either way. We have interpretations of interpretations of impressions, which are called religions, but none of them offers anything that another religion couldn't offer regarding the accuracy of their information. Whether gods of these religions are good or evil, that is a different matter and subject to human judgement. For example, the God of old testament does a lot of things that would be classified as evil (genocide being probably most prominent on several occasions), as well as several other occasions of general dickery like the events that led to the concept of original sin, and the application of original sin to the whole humanity. Actually I think the most "good" thing credited to this God are some personal miracles and stuff that actually benefited a very small portion of humanity (which is strange considering all humanity was supposed to be God's creations).

Even you have to admit that had it been anyone else doing what God has supposedly done, he would be hauled to Hague and convicted of crimes against humanity. Actually, that would be a pretty interesting trial. Might be interesting to see what the defense would have to say about these things...

Also, supposed creation of the world doesn't really count as good or bad in my opinion, it would just... be. Like Douglas Adams said, "In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move." :P

So yes, if I were to define the hypothetic God based on what christianity tells me his actions have historically been, "dick" would be one of possible ways to describe his character. However, it's important to notice that this judgement is based on my interpretation of Christians' interpretation of old texts which were someone's interpretation of some events (maybe) and therefore I would rather come to the conclusion that it's likely Christianity that is wrong about this supposed God. Generally I extend this doubt to all religions since the vast majority of them includes some major dickery done by their God.

Like I said before, I don't especially have any faith in God and I certainly don't believe in any religion for the aforementioned reasons, and others.

Regarding omnipotency, castor summarized it pretty well...

And despite your claims to contrary, defining Universe as "everything that exists" is not inaccurate at all. This is not a difficult concept. If God exists, he is part of things that are, therefore belonging to universe. Refer to the charts in an earlier message for clarification on how God is part of the existence of universe if he exists, one way or another. As far as definitions go, existence of a thing requires that the thing affects the universe in some manner. For this very same reason, it can be shown that concept of supernatural is extremely silly - since everything that happens, happens in universe, an immediate conclusion is that everything that happens is a natural process, therefore supernatural would be something that does not happen in universe or happens outside it without any effect or connection to the universe, which means lack of existence in all meaningful terms. Unknown or unexplicable would be better terms for so-called "supernatural" phenomena.
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Offline TrashMan

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You can only prove it to me if I want you to.

And there, there is the heart of the matter. You admit, in so many words, that you are not open to rational thought! Like the man who believes he is Napeleon, you cannot be reasoned with because you are unwilling to reason!

The downward spiral is amazing, you've gone from admitting this is not something you can argue rationally to admitting you're not even rational at all.

Don't be stupid man.
Wasn't exactly my point that in order to prove something to someone, the other party must be open to listening or accepting?
And you translate that general comment towards myself. Interesting. ...and then you call me irrational. :lol:




Quote
This doesn't prove anything. You've actually used a racist example trying to rebut a remark disproving you on grounds of racism, which is the height of folly. It's like you didn't even read it somehow.

No, I just an example which is more difficult, since similar to God, it's based on some notions and principles that can't really be mesured.



Quote
One might think they didn't have a case. Craaaaazy, huh?

If that's the only conclusion you can come to... There are others, but f'course, you're not even capable of seeing them, let alone pondering over them.
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Offline karajorma

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but f'course, you're not even capable of seeing them, let alone pondering over them.

Just one more of those and you're getting monkeyed for flaming. If you're going to make insulting comments about how he is incapable of thinking about a subject then you're gone.

Quite frankly it adds nothing at all to the discussion and is simply an underhanded way of insulting someone by claiming that they haven't the intellect to understand something.

Oh and just to prove I'm not picking sides, NGTM-1R is also monkeyed if he responds with a flame rather than a counter-argument. Not that I think he would but I figured I might as well say it.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 02:55:11 pm by karajorma »
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Offline Mobius

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Personally I consider claims like "God is evil" just as inaccurate as "God is good". We don't have first hand information either way.

Aren't Christ's teachings based on the fact that "God is good" and loves us all? Maybe we're discussing two separate gods?
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Offline karajorma

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Personally I consider claims like "God is evil" just as inaccurate as "God is good". We don't have first hand information either way.

Aren't Christ's teachings based on the fact that "God is good" and loves us all? Maybe we're discussing two separate gods?

Nothing you mentioned constitutes first hand evidence.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Don't be stupid man.
Wasn't exactly my point that in order to prove something to someone, the other party must be open to listening or accepting?
And you translate that general comment towards myself. Interesting. ...and then you call me irrational. :lol:

 :wtf: This reminds me of a claim I once heard about how the joke about the joke was on me. Well, no, sorry, that's not how it works. Either way, the joke is still on you because you made it. It doesn't matter if you meant it as a joke, you didn't clearly delinate that it was. This is straight out of the Andrew Schafly School of Argument. It's ridiculous.

But worse than that, it's simply not true.

If you had offered a rationalization, anywhere, in this entire thread, it might have made sense that it is what you say it is. But you haven't. You haven't even tried to invoke God having an Omniscient Morality License so He can do this sort of thing "for the greater good", you've just repeatedly stated "He's God". You admitted that you were not prepared to argue this on its rational merits once already.

From your behavior and your existing admissions, it is not at all a stretch to conclude that you are neither willing nor ultimately able to discuss this subject in a rational manner. So no, my friend. The Pacific Northwest Areboral Octopus is on you, after all.

No, I just an example which is more difficult, since similar to God, it's based on some notions and principles that can't really be mesured.

Only it isn't. To argue moral relativism, with me, in this context, is the height of folly. If anyone was ever deserving of moral relativism on their own traits rather than on the situation itself, God would be that "anyone", because, as I said, Omniscient Morality License.

Yet here you argue moral relativism on the traits of a person rather than their situation with me, when I have just rejected the very concept totally and utterly.

If that's the only conclusion you can come to... There are others, but f'course, you're not even capable of seeing them, let alone pondering over them.

Actually, I am. You probably wish to invoke the persecution complex here in your own mental defense (nobody else is going to be very impressed with it, I suspect, as it's rather old hat). Only it's not our fault, so sorry.

Now, the great pity of this is that we do not shout them or ban them or suppress them. The oroblem are not capable of answering us in a reasonable, rational fashion. A man can only make so many ad hoc assumptions to uphold his beliefs before it becomes a concious effort, and at that point it becomes what was termed in a blog I like to read "chosen to pretend to believe" because, in making a concious effort to continue to believe this, they know on some level that what they believe is wrong.

And to avoid either entering this state, or reminding themselves they are in it, the religious in our midst suppress themselves.

In the battle of reason and magical thinking, reason has forever met magical thinking and demolished it, much as science and engineering have destroyed faith on the battlefield. (Which is considerably more inclusive then mere religious faith; Guadalcanal could be considered American engineering demolishing Japanese racial faith for example.) That is our victory, won perhaps on our terms, but our terms were equitable and fair.

Ours is not an illegitimate trimuph, much as you might like to imagine, and as you have previously tried to claim by insulting the moderating team. It is, perhaps, an easy one; Scotty is the most capable opponent we've had in some time, probably since Liberator (who, despite his easiness to goad, was actually a reasonably good debater when he kept his cool). But victory won easily is still victory. It is not the fault of those who came prepared that the other side did not.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 04:33:30 pm by NGTM-1R »
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Offline Mobius

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Nothing you mentioned constitutes first hand evidence.

Well I was told that Christ continuously said "Dio è buono"("God is good").

Proof: the "old" Hebrew God was evil, when needed, while the Christian God is always supposed to be good. Another proof: the Jew tradition has no reference to the Devil because God fullfilled the roles of godo and evil entity.
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