[TrashMan]

There are 2 kinds of burglars:

1. The ones that just want your money and are not looming for trouble. Let's call this type, type A.

2. The ones that really want your money and don't care much about trouble. They'll do whatever it takes to get it. Type B

Both types can carry a guns. A person owning a gun can also own a gun. Thus we have 4 probable outcomes:


1) Type A burglar, owner doesn't have a gun
the burglar doesn't see you as a threat if you cooperate. He gets your money but you and your family are safe. The police will probably catch him.

2) Type B burglar, owner doesn't have a gun
the burglar doesn't see you as a threat if you cooperate. He gets your money. Unless he's a very violent type, you and your family are safe.


3) Type A burglar, owner has a gun
the burglar sees you as a threat. He will either run or panic and start shooting. 50% chance either way.

4) Type B burglar, owner has a gun
the burglar sees you as a threat. He starts shooting. High chance of you ending up dead, since he's probably a better shot.

[Hellstryker]

I really, really wish you Europeans or whatevers would stop judging us by the **** you see on TV, especially considering most of you ever never even been to America, or if you have you certainly haven't been anywhere outside of major cities.. Sure, our government has made some rather horrid choices in the recent past, but judging a country solely by its leader (along with some school shootings and stupid **** like that) here and there, is like saying all Germans are Nazis. Seriously, how do you people get the impressions that we shoot each other to settle the slightest of arguments or that every highschooler is a drug addicted delinquent? 

[karajorma]

I wish you Americans would stop assuming that us Europeans can't have lived in America and/or know all about it from other sources.

I think guns give you a false comfort which you have to pay for. And I pay for enough things as it is.

Same can be said about seat belts and airbags, but it doesn't mean it's true.

I can point to statistics that prove that seat belts and airbags have a real effect on survivability in a crash. You've still failed to provide any proof that the reduction in crime over the last 10 years in the US has been due to gun ownership.

[Warlock]

Heh I just thought I'd chime in since I've been working on alarm systems in one form or another since the early 90's.

Alarms in a residential alarms activate, the monitering station calls the home first. If noone answers, or you answer and request help/act "odd" on the phone, they send the police. Police are not sent automatically for a general alarm.

Now some home systems have what they call panic alarms. These can be either a button (ie my apartment system as one attached in the bedroom to be reachable from bed for a medial issue) or by inputing a code into the alarm keypad which shuts down the alarm and calls police. This is for when the "Smart burglar" forces you to shut it off.

Now alarms in banks and other offices can have numberous panic alarms through out. Banks will have buttons at each teller as well as what's called a billtrap, a set pack of money that isn't used, fits under a clip so that when it's pulled out an alarm goes off.

But my point is, just because your home alarm activates, does not mean cops will show up right away. Reason is because imagine the number of false alarms due to equipment faults, user errors, and such. On average police allow 1-2 false alarms a month before you are billed per false alarm.

[NGTM-1R]

Well if alarms are so good in the USA why would anyone need a gun for home defence against burglars then?

The only home defence need for them would then be against psychopaths, surely?

Gun is cheaper.

Warlock: not so, some, perhaps many alarms operate that way, but there are those that do not; I remember because the one my parents had did place a direct call to the police and the alarm company would cancel it if you answered the phone.

[karajorma]

Gun is cheaper.

But according to you so much less effective that it's almost stupid to buy a gun first.

[Warlock]

Of course there's always exceptions to every rule I can't speak about every central station ...just ones on systems I've dealt with.

But most do call the owner first on a general alarm....which is good since I've set a great many off by mistake over the years servicing them

[NGTM-1R]

Gun is cheaper.

But according to you so much less effective that it's almost stupid to buy a gun first.

Perhaps, but the accidental setting off of, the stress, the annoyance, and the cost (and it is not an inconsiderable cost) of an alarm system makes it quite a bit less attractive.

[SpardaSon21]

Okay High Max, how about you tell me where you live so I can rob you while you try and persuade me not to.  Hopefully you do realize you get further with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone.

[Scotty]

I can point to statistics that prove that seat belts and airbags have a real effect on survivability in a crash.

Causation !=Correlation.

I can and will say that every time you try to say something like that.  It's really easy to dismiss evidence on that grounds.

There are so many ways besides guns.

Not one of which is a more permanent future deterrent.

No matter what you do, you always take chances in life.

And I carry a gun so I don't have to take a stupid chance with my life like that.

I live in a relatively safer state than you probably

Doesn't really matter.  It can still happen.  FYI, I live in East Kansas.

You are being paranoid.

Carries with it the nice bonus of living longer.

since the previous is much more likely.

But generally more survivable.  Just sometimes.

When did I say it was perfect

You didn't.  I was saying that stuff like you want to happen will only happen in a perfect world.  Sort of like pure communism.

No but many Americans tend to say that it has the best quality of life

Don't really care.  I live here, I will keep on living here.  If I were living in Somalia, I would think the same way.  Where I am has no effect on my thinking in that respect (except maybe Zimbabwe).

which I hate to hear that stupid remark

Then don't put said stupid remark in my mouth for me.

Notice that the USA is almost always an invading force

Only recently.  I can cite quite a few examples of when we weren't.  American Revolution, War of 1812, Spanish American War, WWI, WWII, Korea (that was the United Nations, technically), War Between the States.  It has only been just recently that we have been invaders.  Vietnam we didn't invade, we were helping our ally, South Vietnam.  1st Gulf War was United Nations.  Somalia was also United Nations.  I'll give you Afghanistan and Iraq.  That's it.

Note that USA went overboard on Hiroshima

I refuse to note this because it is not true.  On Okinawa, the civilians were throwing themselves from cliffs rather than allow themselves to be occupied.  How much worse would it have been if the city of Tokyo were invaded?  How many millions of peolpe would have died.  Hiroshima was the least costly alternative.

Both capitalism and communism have pros and cons

   Stop trying to change the subject

And then another very bad thing is they killed only around 2000 Americans and USA killed 100's of times that.

2400 at Pearl Harbor alone.  Six other island bases were hit within two days.  Over 6000.  It was a war.  If you want me to pull up casualty figures I can, but the Japanese did a lot more than 2000.  12000 on Okinawa alone.  Dead.

There would be less war if this country didn't always invade like a war hungry culture doing more harm than good

It doesn't always do that.  See response above.

Second, do you know how many people Saddam Hussein killed?  The Taliban killed?  Then look at how many the U.S. has killed since we went in.  Hussein gassed 5000 of his own people in North Iraq, and during his reign killed almost 300,000 people.  Now tell me we did more harm than good.

You're saying that the poorest Americans are richer than the richest people from other countries?

No.  I'm also not saying that America has 10% of the world's population, in case you wanted to get that wrong too.  I was saying that even some of the poorest Americans are in the top 600 million richest people.

You strike me as a trigger happy person.  That isn't very grown up.

Why not?  Just because you don't think so?

Hopefully you do realize you get further with a kind word and a gun than with a kind word alone.

 

[Warlock]

Gun is cheaper.

But according to you so much less effective that it's almost stupid to buy a gun first.

Perhaps, but the accidental setting off of, the stress, the annoyance, and the cost (and it is not an inconsiderable cost) of an alarm system makes it quite a bit less attractive.

Yea many ppl can't afford that $20 a month basic alarm coverage fee from ADT that includes free basic system installation and set up.

Oh.....wait.

See the truth of the matter, Alarm system is good.....alarm system + firearm of choice is much much better

Now the whole part of the thread about the US being the evil invading war monster....I'll just point at you and laugh a bit If we were half that bad we'd never land troops....just carpet bomb or perhaps tac nuke away our foes.

[karajorma]

I can point to statistics that prove that seat belts and airbags have a real effect on survivability in a crash.

Causation !=Correlation.

I can and will say that every time you try to say something like that.  It's really easy to dismiss evidence on that grounds.

Easy but wrong. And it betrays a fundamental lack of understanding of how science or statistics work.  

If I point to statistics for crashes and tabulate the results where the only difference is whether or not people were wearing seatbelts, that's good evidence. Your statistics on the other hand were useless. Where was your table for Florida where everything else stayed the same but guns permits weren't given out?

[SpardaSon21]

Maybe I should just add the line "American and Proud to Be" in my sig then, what do you think?  After all, its the truth.

A gun isn't good for just killing people you know.  It makes a great visible threat as well.  If someone pointed a gun at me, I would want to be somewhere else.  A knife or baseball bat just aren't like that.  A gun can persuade the guy to leave your house and drop what he stole in a much more direct and quicker way than a melee weapon.

[SpardaSon21]

I like having a choice in my methods of defense.  Whether its a gun or an alarm system, I like to keep my options open.

And about Social Security, I wish it was never invented.  I would be glad if that legalized Ponzi scheme disappeared.  I'm one of those right-wing anti-government loonies you keep hearing about on the liberal media.  Although I'm atheist, not Christian.

[Scotty]

Maybe I should just add the line "American and Proud to Be" in my sig then

Good idea.

One thing you can do to maximize your safety is don't be stupid enough to move into a dangerous place to begin with, and move away if it is known to be dangerous or do research first before moving there.

Well then, that makes all of us with military families f*cked then, doesn't it?

I can find other ways to take you down if you try without my being lethal and risking getting in big trouble.

Self-defense will not get you a sentence in the U.S., provided that the force used, up to and including lethal force, is deemed merited by a jury.

Once again, a perfect example of a black and white train of thought, by you not thinking of other ways besides guns

I have though long and hard about my home defense.  I have decided that a firearm is the most effective policy.  Do not label me simply because I disagree with you.

That might change if we lose social security someday.

At which point I still can and will be proud to be an American.  Social Security is a superflous, horribly expensive welfare program.

If people can get high powered guns illegally, they can get body armor and other stronger weapons too.

Body armor has a nasty tendency to not work very well when struck with multiple high power bullets, say... 5.56 mm?  Those are legally acquired here.  As well as a very nice stock Mosin Nagant Russian infantry rifle.

the criminal came prepared expecting you to have a gun

If he did, he will not bother to hear your story if he finds you.  It becomes a 'shoot first, ask questions later' sort of thing.

a gun is a false sense of security.

It is only false if one is not properly trained in the utilization of said weapons.

And about Social Security, I wish it was never invented.  I would be glad if that legalized Ponzi scheme disappeared.  I'm one of those right-wing anti-government loonies you keep hearing about on the liberal media.  Although I'm atheist, not Christian.

Hell yes!!  But I do happen to be Christian, so double points for me  .

[Grizzly]

Isn't social security... Giving money to the poor... very christian?

[TrashMan]

a gun is a false sense of security.

It is only false if one is not properly trained in the utilization of said weapons.

No, it is false because trained or not, the other guy may be just as trained or just as well armed. And the chances of him shooting at you go up drasticly if you yourself are holding a gun. In other words, you're giving him a reason to shoot, since you are a possible threat. A burglar is highly unlikey to shoot you if you're not a threat.

And while I'm sure you feel all badass with your big gun, all the feeling of badasness won't save you from a bullet in the head. Especially if there's two or more of them. (burglars that is - but it works for bullets too)

[SpardaSon21]

It isn't whether or not a gun is useful.  It is whether or not we like having something we can do if a burglar breaks in.  Being able to do something is better than letting him rob us blind.

[MarkN]

Of course the argument is a bit pointless as most REAL burglars wait until you are out before they try to break in (even the stupid one who keep on trying to break in to my parents house)

[TrashMan]

It isn't whether or not a gun is useful.  It is whether or not we like having something we can do if a burglar breaks in.  Being able to do something is better than letting him rob us blind.

Here's something.

Select one or two very valubale items in your house adn ensure them.
Then when a burglar break in offer no resistance, in fact, be as helpful las possible.
Oh, and let the fact that you own those valubale items "slip" out. Make it look unintentional