Author Topic: A Nation Of Cowards  (Read 57999 times)

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Offline Scotty

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I see no answer to my citation needed thingy.  You have to have a working medicine before you can yell about us getting it wrong.

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Why do you think people rob banks?

Perhaps I misspoke.  There is no justifiable reason to rob a bank.  If someone tells me that they robbed a bank because they were poor, it will not change my opinion of them.  (C'mon High Max, work with me here)  There is no need to resort to violence of any kind because you are poor.  There are several government agencies and programs, whether I agree with them or not, that help people like that.

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3. Your aforementioned taxes on drugs.  By not spending billions of dollars every month on unpopular, unnecessary wars.

All right, lemme get this straight.  You are in favor of nationalizing the health care industry (that's the only way the taxes can be used to support it).  Tell me if I'm wrong.  Please say yes, I really don't want to get into that argument.

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But never at any time did FDR repeal the writ of habeas corpus or order spying on Americans.

He did, however, restrict the right to petition, to peaceably assemble, and the right to a trial by jury of all those people.  Besides, he wasn't spying, he was just eliminating the "need" to by keeping them from doing anything wrong.  :p

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Pax Americana but to defend our homeland.

 :lol:  Pax Americana means literally American Peace or Peace in America.  That is exactly what the military is for.

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We have:
1) a vast nuclear force
2) one of the largest militaries in the world
3) a large military alliance with some of the other world's largest militaries
4) two oceans surrounding us

Do you really need gun ownership to be another reason?

Yes.  The better question would be:  Why restrict it?  Better safe than sorry.

 

Offline esarai

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The country obviously suffers from violent crime (the aforementioned open gash), and you did put a cap on crime temporarily with allowing people to carry guns (or bandages), but the country is just going to die from the inside from escalation and even higher levels of crime (the infection).
And how the hell do you intend to remove the infection?  Besides, why can't guns be an anti-septic bandage :p.

Guns would be the equivalent of radiation therapy, not antibiotics. "Let's hope it kills the problem before it kills you."


Yes, it will, or rather, has the capacity to.  Gun laws precisely are the reason that it doesn't at this moment.

Okay, by that logic you're basically saying that people should have access to M-134's, Javelin anti-tank missiles, mortars and artillery. The point is that in order for the average citizen to effectively counter any invading force they'd need much more firepower than a hunting rifle or handgun could provide. And if military weapons were freely available to the public, much more destruction could be wrought by violent or unstable people. Seeing as we have the strongest military in the world, it is a moot point. People do not need to defend themselves from such an invasion, reducing this argument's potential benefit to the general populace. It would do more harm than good to give people unrestricted access to weapons that powerful when our nation is so secure.

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In the few seconds it would take for you to raise the gun to a ready position and load (assuming you're being safe and carrying it unarmed), the opposing weapon would already be fired, and the bullet passing through your skull.
Only if the poor bloody idiot just stands there and brings his gun up.  Besides, a gun can be loaded and still safe, as long as there is no bullet in the chamber.  Going for speed, I can have a Walther .380 PPKS jacked and aimed in less than two seconds.
Even then, the cocking and unsafing of the weapon will give the perpetrator more than enough time to fire. It only takes a fraction of a second for the trigger to operate, much less time than chambering a round and unsafing the weapon. Forgive me if my firearm terminology is a wee bit lax.

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The best logical response is to commit crimes in pairs or packs, with someone to watch your back while you fulfill your immoral and barbaric desires
:lol:  The best 'logical' response in occasions like this is to not commit crimes at all.  I will give you that it will 'protect' the first one.
You are of course assuming that people will follow the same logic that we do, which in many cases is limited by our circumstances. People are not the same and can make decisions that seem logical to them but are illogical to others. As such, if crime is their only remaining mode of income or survival, they will not be weaned from it so easily. Many criminals already live and operate in environments where they have acclimated to the possibility of gun violence and as such will not be averse to continuing illegal activities.

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and calling people cowards for not siding with the "more guns means less crime" argument is arrogant.

And vice versa.  Calling someone a coward for using firearms is arrogant as well.
I am not calling people cowards for using firearms. I am simply noting that in order to want a firearm for self defense a person must feel threatened, but feeling threatened does not equate to cowardice.

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What of martial artists capable of defending themselves without resorting to firearms?

What of them?  At 20 feet, a criminal has time to fire two shots before anyone could get to him.  Makes martial arts pretty useless pretty fast.
But enter the realm of CQB, which is where a lot of crime occurs unless it's an assassination, they retain their effectiveness. Not all criminals are perfect gunmen or combatants and may give a martial-arts trained person their chance to strike.  All modes of personal defense have their uses. The problem I have with the argument is that it advertises guns as the "cure all," without recognizing that they can be impractical.


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Firearms are not the answer to every problem
Conversely, there are also not never an answer.
I never said they didn't have their uses. I'm merely remarking on the one-sided approach this article is taking to the subject.

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It makes you foolish for thinking you can deal with anything that is thrown at you.

A gun is a tool.  By the same reasoning, carrying a hammer makes you foolish for thinking you can construct anything.  A gun makes no one foolish.  Granted, lots of people would be, but only if they carry and will try to use guns without proper training.

The purpose of this statement is to show the one-sided approach of the article's argument. It never concedes that these problems can be solved in other, less violent manners. It advocates firearms as the solution to crime, without recognizing that firearms can be highly impractical in many situations, and is akin to assuming that a hammer can build anything. I am not saying that all people who carry firearms are foolish. I am remarking on the foolishness of the argument.


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And that can been seen as the cowardice I mentioned before and weak-mindedness.
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Different things to different people.  You continue to indirectly call me a coward, whether you realize it or not.
In discussions such as this participants should avoid making the arguments personal or  taking statements as an insult unless they are blatantly intended to be so.  Making these assumptions can quickly make discussions unpleasant for all involved.

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You continue to indirectly call me a coward, whether you realize it or not.

Or maybe I do realize it and I say how I feel. You clearly don't have enough confidence to go even a small portion of your life without a gun, apparently. You must have serious emotional trauma (of course I know on average that teenagers are much more likely to be emotionally out of control "unstable" or in other words "impulsive and lacking judgment" than older people since their brains are not fully developed and that is the same reason they are more likely to drive in a crazy fashion. I was reading about that being the cause of 16 year olds being the most dangerous drivers out there and my feeling and others feeling that they are too young to drive. Read this: http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-03-02-teens-cars-main-usat_x.htm) and I bet you are a gun fanatic who has posters of guns all around his room and maybe sleep hugging a gun like kids do with teddy bears in their arms and you have a smile with your eyes close. :D Thinking about it makes me smile. Do you have gun wallpaper too??? :lol: Does it say "shoot to kill" in red on the wall paper too? :nod: :rolleyes:

I think this fits you:

Quote from: esarai
From a psychological standpoint, carrying a firearm means that you are more afraid--you feel threatened to the point of being willing to kill.

Oh sweet merciful crap I was too late.
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<Axem>he threw out all those tax collectors at the temple
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Offline General Battuta

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I will agree with High Max on just one point: there are clearly a lot of teenagers in this thread. I haven't heard so much hypothetical violence since I was in high school!

But don't count me as as involved.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 09:50:46 am by General Battuta »

 

Offline Inquisitor

Raise your hand if you have ever drawn a weapon (specifically, a firearm) on another human being.

Especially those of you apparently licensed to, or otherwise inclined to carry one. Although, believe it or not, even the liberals occasionally arm themselves...

Most of the cops I know take "protect and serve" very seriously. They are trained. They generally know when to fire, or better yet NOT fire their weapons. So to the article, yes, I expect them to protect me and my neighbors, and frankly, so do they. That's the oath they swear when they put the badge on.

This is an interesting legal review of the 2nd amendment, not sure I agree with it all, but good read:
http://www.law.ucla.edu/volokh/common.htm

I carry a sidearm occasionally, by the way, and I am not a policeman. People without training brandishing weapons scares the **** out of me. These things are brutal, dangerous tools, meant pretty much expressly for killing human beings. Lots of good reasons to carry a weapon. Not sure I am seeing a lot of reasoned responses in the vein of those good reasons.

On a sarcastic note, we all had guns in the 1800's. It wasn't called the "Wild West" for nothing.
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Offline swashmebuckle

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Just read in the paper that a guy in Pittsburgh killed three cops yesterday.  There was another shooting the same day in Washington where a dude killed his five kids and himself.  Yesterday's paper, in the article about the previous morning's Binghamton New York shooting where the person killed thirteen people plus himself in an immigrant services center, said that (including that one) the recent string of multiple shootings has left forty four people dead all over the country in the past month: ten plus the shooter in Samson Alabama, four cops plus the gunman in Oakland California (which was the only thing in the news around here for a week), five plus the shooter in Santa Clara California, and eight at a nursing home in North Carolina.  So including yesterday's. the past month's total for rampage shootings alone in my country is sitting at around fifty two.  Not worse than, say, Iraq, but probably not that much better either. 

I know people love weapons, and I admit that I did find it pretty thrilling in an awe-inspiring, terrifying sort of way the couple times I fired a gun back when I was a kid, but can we at least do something about the whole criminals outgunning law enforcement thing?  Both of the incidents where cops got killed were by dudes with assault rifles (the Oakland shooter killed two officers with a handgun during a routine traffic stop and then two SWAT cops with an AK-47 at his house, and the Pittsburgh guy had body armor too).  Police are not soldiers in an occupied territory and should not have to deal with that sort of thing.  In addition to the terrible direct damage they can do, making this type of firepower easily accessible to the bat**** crazy elements of our society makes even the best cops more likely to screw up, which only adds more fuel to the fire.

And what the hell does anybody need an assault rifle for?  Modern insurgencies against our own occupying forces seem to have much more success with bombs rather than guns, and if the Russians/Chinese/Mexicans/Shivans/Québécois invade, I think they'll at least bring tanks.  Maybe even mechs (one can only hope).  Anyway, baseball's return today should remind us that our national pastime is not headshots, but this month still sucks ass.  Go A's.

 

Offline General Battuta

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The guy in Pittsburgh who killed three cops did so because he believed Obama was going to take away the right to bear arms.

Which goes to show that sometimes gun-nut arguments are genuinely dangerous rather than lovably kooky.

 

Offline karajorma

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You do realise that the pro-gun lobby are simply going to say that the situation wouldn't have been as bloody if everyone carried guns?
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Offline Scotty

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You do realise that the pro-gun lobby are simply going to say that the situation wouldn't have been as bloody if everyone carried guns?

Dang, beat me too it.  ;)

But seriously and honestly, how much shorter would it have been if even one of the people there had a gun to defend themselves with?  All people do now is scream and run away, not much stopping it there.

The guy in Pittsburgh who killed three cops did so because he believed Obama was going to take away the right to bear arms.

Which goes to show that sometimes gun-nut arguments are genuinely dangerous rather than lovably kooky.

Which goes to show that some gun-nuts are acutally nuts, not that the argument is bad.

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making this type of firepower easily accessible to the bat**** crazy elements of our society makes even the best cops more likely to screw up, which only adds more fuel to the fire.

Making anything available to the bat**** crazy elements of our society makes things worse.  Anyway, that doesn't seem to me like the cops screwing up.

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It wasn't called the "Wild West" for nothing.


Umm, yeah, it just about was for nothing

Wild West not that Wild

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Okay, by that logic you're basically saying that people should have access to M-134's, Javelin anti-tank missiles, mortars and artillery.

Not exactly.  The latter three are forms of explosives, and not guns.  The M-134 is a type of vehicle mounted weapon.  I draw the line at explosives and mounted/emplaced weapons.

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the cocking and unsafing of the weapon will give the perpetrator more than enough time to fire. It only takes a fraction of a second for the trigger to operate

Once again, only if the poor bloody idiot doesn't get his ass out of the way.  Average reflex time for a 20 year old-male in good physical condition is about .35 seconds, the time it takes to fire a weapon purely from reflexes without aiming is .45 seconds approximately.  Half a second is plenty of time to be out of the way if he doesn't know which way you are going to go.  Time climbs exponentially after that, with aimed discharge at about three seconds after initial movement.

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I am not calling people cowards for using firearms.

Sorry, seems I forgot to whom I was talking.  High Max has come out and said it a few times this thread.
Exhibit A:
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Or maybe I do realize it and I say how I feel.

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I'm merely remarking on the one-sided approach this article is taking to the subject.


Amazing!  He's actually referring to the start of the argument!  I don't think I ever read that thing in the first place, and just jumped in on page three or four.

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@Scotty: You sure are persistent.

Why, thank you :D.

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You must have serious emotional trauma (of course I know on average that teenagers are much more likely to be emotionally out of control "unstable" or in other words "impulsive and lacking judgment" than older people since their brains are not fully developed and that is the same reason they are more likely to drive in a crazy fashion.

Possibly, though I doubt it.  I've never really though of myself as unstable.  As for the driving comment, I get people pissed at me all the time for actually going the speed limit, not over.

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I bet you are a gun fanatic who has posters of guns all around his room and maybe sleep hugging a gun like kids do with teddy bears in their arms and you have a smile with your eyes close.  Thinking about it makes me smile. Do you have gun wallpaper too???  Does it say "shoot to kill" in red on the wall paper too?
 

And I wouldn't be surprised if your room were a stark, sterile white with a meditation cushion in the middle of the floor.  :D.  But seriously, I may be a conservative and in favor of gun rights/availability, but that doesn't mean I want to go out an kill someone just because a gun sounds cool when it discharges.  I posses a .22 long rifle and an M14 carbine.  My room is a nice shade of blue-green, no wallpaper to speak of. 

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Semi-Quote:  From a psychological standpoint, carrying a firearm means that you are more afraid--you feel threatened to the point of being willing to kill.

Think that if you want.  I prefer being ready in the event that I am threatened to such an extent.  Does that make someone learning a martial art afraid as well?

 

Offline karajorma

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You do realise that the pro-gun lobby are simply going to say that the situation wouldn't have been as bloody if everyone carried guns?

Dang, beat me too it.  ;)

But seriously and honestly, how much shorter would it have been if even one of the people there had a gun to defend themselves with?  All people do now is scream and run away, not much stopping it there.

Given that one of them managed to kill two SWATs who obviously have good weapons and better training than 99% of citizen gun owners I very much doubt the outcome would have been different.
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Offline Warlock

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One thing to note, as you read all the "kills by wacko with gun" new articles, how many of those were legally owned firearms.

Criminals having illegal weapons blows any reasonable gun control concepts out of the water.
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Offline Nuclear1

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Pax Americana means literally American Peace or Peace in America.  That is exactly what the military is for.
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I have, therefore, chosen this time and place to discuss a topic on which ignorance too often abounds and the truth too rarely perceived. And that is the most important topic on earth: peace. What kind of peace do I mean and what kind of a peace do we seek? Not a Pax Americana enforced on the world by American weapons of war.

Same thing as the medicine and bandage analogy on a global scale.
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Offline Inquisitor

Next time I will bold the "Sarcasm" part so its clearer.

For the record, note the explicit use of the word "Homicide" rather than "killed" in your link ;)

Yes, that is sarcasm again.

So Scotty, what kind of pistol do you carry and why do you carry it?

-edit-
Never mind, missed a whole paragraph in the above post. You say you have an M-14 (nice, been considering one of those) and a .22 LR (I assume a rifle chambered for 22LR, but maybe you have a Ruger or S&W target pistol).

Out of curiousity, if my assumption is correct, why don't you own and carry?

-edit2-

Interesting study I ran across while searching for firearm related fatality statistics (mostly the Wild West reference, but Google of course takes me on fun little rides now and then).

http://www.wvdhhr.org/whatsnew/firearms/index.htm
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 03:29:52 pm by Inquisitor »
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Offline General Battuta

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You do realise that the pro-gun lobby are simply going to say that the situation wouldn't have been as bloody if everyone carried guns?

Dang, beat me too it.  ;)

But seriously and honestly, how much shorter would it have been if even one of the people there had a gun to defend themselves with?  All people do now is scream and run away, not much stopping it there.

Given that one of them managed to kill two SWATs who obviously have good weapons and better training than 99% of citizen gun owners I very much doubt the outcome would have been different.

Yeah, this.

 

Offline swashmebuckle

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Given that one of them managed to kill two SWATs who obviously have good weapons and better training than 99% of citizen gun owners I very much doubt the outcome would have been different.
Yeah this is what I was trying to get at with the assault rifle cop killer angle.  Police have a responsibility to make sure their target is the right man before firing, and before that they have to try to arrest him.  Criminals are under no such restriction.  The Oakland guy ambushed the SWAT team, firing through the closet door where he was hiding.  Similarly in Pittsburgh the guy just waited for the unsuspecting cops to come to his door and then opened up on them.  In each case their access to weapons that belong in a warzone let them quickly kill multiple officers (all of whom had guns and presumably acceptable reaction time and training) before surrendering (Pittsburgh) or dying in a hail of bullets (Oakland).  

The purpose of these assault rifles is to allow a single person to take out as many enemies as possible; they are more likely to kill their target and more likely to cause collateral damage and unintended casualties than the guns used by police, hence why regular cops don't use them.  Letting citizens own automatic weapons is not "leveling the playing field" or protecting our freedoms, it is overempowering the armed individual in relation to both his peers and the people that have actually taken on the responsibility to protect us.

edit: I should note that people actually aren't allowed to own full automatics if they weren't registered before a certain date in the 80s I think, though rifles that were originally designed as selective fire and are now only issued to the general public as semi automatic are easily converted to full after being legally sold to drug runners, gang bangers, freedom fighters etc.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2009, 03:44:31 pm by swashmebuckle »

 

Offline karajorma

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Criminals having illegal weapons blows any reasonable gun control concepts out of the water.

But where do you think that criminals get these illegal weapons from?
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Offline Mika

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I read through the recent pages of this thread with slight amusement and on the other hand, slightly terrified.

US is different from Europe, and even the rest of Europe is very different from Scandinavia. I haven't even heard of pick-pockets or other kinds of stealing on the streets nationwide for a long time. What is this concept of "street crime" that you are talking about? Why does it exist?

Violent crimes though, are getting more common around here. They tend to use knives a lot more, but there are some black market arms around also. But Southern Sweden sounds a lot worse. There are actually quite a lot of immigrants in there. If it is due to them, I think the better strategy for taking all kinds of immigrants would have been to split them around the country to become swedenized in rural areas. Unfortunately, EU seems to think that this kind of strategy that is used here is basically trampling of the immigrant rights.

Something like that could have happened in US also.

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Offline karajorma

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I definitely blame America's gun problems on immigrants. Look at the stats for the 15th century. No immigrants, no gun crime. :p
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Offline Mobius

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Violent crimes though, are getting more common around here. They tend to use knives a lot more, but there are some black market arms around also. But Southern Sweden sounds a lot worse. There are actually quite a lot of immigrants in there. If it is due to them, I think the better strategy for taking all kinds of immigrants would have been to split them around the country to become swedenized in rural areas. Unfortunately, EU seems to think that this kind of strategy that is used here is basically trampling of the immigrant rights.

I think the situation here is even worse. That's why certain politicians wanted to react, but the EU accused new policies in terms of immigrations as racist attempts to get rid of those unlucky individuals.

The problem is that anything against immigrants with bad intentions is to be pointed out as the direct consequence of racism towards immigrants in general.
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Offline Liberator

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Here's a spiffy quote from the study linked previously
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A 1994 CDC study revealed that the rate of homicide among all 15-to-19-year-old males in the nation increased by 154% (from 13.0 to 33.0 deaths per 100,000 15-to-19-year-old males) between 1985 and 1991; firearm-related homicides accounted for 97% of this increase (6).
I find it ironic that this is the age group most impacted by a lack of fathers in the home.  With no major adult male influence in they're lives, of course they're going to behave like the criminals glorified on the news and over the top protagonists in action movies.  They don't know any better.
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Offline Scotty

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So Scotty, what kind of pistol do you carry and why do you carry it?

I'm fairly certain that I can't carry a pistol, at least, not in public.  Nor can I actually own one until I move out of my house.  Apparently, it is illegal in Kansas for a minor to posess a pistol because it "raises the chances of domestic violence."  However, my dad has a Walther .380 PPKS, an M1911 .45, a Ruger .22, and a Jennings .22.  Take your pick, but I would choose the PPKS because I can have that one loaded and ready to fire in around two seconds.

My rifle is a ruger bolt-action.

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if my assumption is correct, why don't you own and carry?

Kansas gun laws.  :doubt:

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What is this concept of "street crime" that you are talking about? Why does it exist?

Oh, to live in such a place where guns might never be used in self-defense on the streets.

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With no major adult male influence in they're lives, of course they're going to behave like the criminals glorified on the news and over the top protagonists in action movies.  They don't know any better.

Being in that age group, I would be inclined to resent that if it weren't regrettably true.  I am fortunate at least to be able to live with my dad.