Author Topic: A Nation Of Cowards  (Read 58027 times)

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Offline Snail

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Tank drivers are stupid.

GO AROUND much?

 

Offline General Battuta

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They don't have blinkers, so they can't change lanes.

 

Offline Flipside

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They were too close in patrol, always leave a tank length between vehicles, those things don't turn on a dime.

 

Offline Snail

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They were too close in patrol, always leave a tank length between vehicles, those things don't turn on a dime.
No reverse gear either then...

 

Offline karajorma

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Genie out of the bottle, not to mention it sets bad precedence on revoking granted rights. 200+ years of historical momentum.


The constitution has been amended both to remove a right and then to reverse that. So the precedent is already set both ways.

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Once a right is granted, its hard to revoke it. Especially if you are talking about Americans. We take it seriously.

What you are suggesting is a bit too utopian a view to be realistic. We have them, we believe we have reasons to carry them on occasion. They are not going away in the United States.


Again, not much of an argument. You're basically saying we always have done it so why should we stop.

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The people should have the right to defend their homes from attack, foreign or domestic, to be able to take up arms in defense of their country, a right that the british attempted to take away in the 1700's For better or worse, its one of hte things that started that little tiff we had a couple hundred years ago.

Is it viable now? I dunno.

It's not. As I explained to Warlock, believing you can protect yourself against the government with the kind of weapons you legally have access to is Red Dawn style fantasy. How long do you really think Waco would have lasted against a tyrannical government? They'd have just brought the artillery in and ended it within a few hours.

The same goes for foreign invasions. If the enemy have somehow gotten past the US armed forces it's hard to believe that someone is going to hold them off with a handgun.

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I do know I have reasons to be armed on occasion. Safeguarding things greedy people want. Those greedy people could be foreign or domestic. The likelihood of it happening is low enough not to require a police escort, the the consequences of it happening are high enough to take some precautions. That's pure risk assessment and mitigation. In the unlikely even that something were to happen, that something is likely to be lethal. So, in those circumstances I carry a weapon.


Perhaps but in doing so you're getting yourself into an arms race with the criminals. A race you can only lose precisely because they are criminals and thus are likely to go further than you. How will carrying a gun help you against two or three greedy people? How will it help you if they carry bigger guns?

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It was standard practice to take a weapon, often a rifle, when out on the farm. Groundhogs dig up huge holes that wreck tractors posing a life threatening circumstance, they also could create a situation where the cattle could break a leg, threatening the viability of the herd. We were to identify the holes to fill in, and shoot the poor little critters to thin their population. We also had the traditional "fox in the hen-house" problems. You protect your land.

Rifles are still legal in the UK for much the same reason. The sale of such weapons is much more heavily licensed than in the US but you can still get a rifle if you need one for that reason.

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Additionally, I spent time doing field work out west. It is highly dangerous to spend any time in the back country of the American west. Between the people who might think you a claim jumper, and the various wild animals that might decide you are a tasty snack, you go armed. Period. You'll find that to be the case of many nationalities in many wildernesses. People who did field work in Alaska were issued .45's to help them convince grizzly bears that they were not worth snacking on (note, the cartridge was big enough to hurt the bear and make it go away, but not big enough to kill it). Bears, boars, wolves, coyotes, rattlesnakes. Some would hunt you, some would attack if startled. All of them were dangerous, and being armed helped make sure you at least survived the encounter. I carried a pistol in those days for those reasons.

Lacking natural predators in this country that's not a problem here. You might need a gun in the countryside but why would they need them in New York or Dallas?
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Offline Flipside

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They were too close in patrol, always leave a tank length between vehicles, those things don't turn on a dime.
No reverse gear either then...

Possibly, but this is China, the drivers were in a bit of a situation, reverse and they would be punished by their superiors, advance and be condemned by just about every nation on the planet, so the did the only thing they could, they just sat still.

 

Offline Snail

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They were too close in patrol, always leave a tank length between vehicles, those things don't turn on a dime.
No reverse gear either then...

Possibly, but this is China, the drivers were in a bit of a situation, reverse and they would be punished by their superiors, advance and be condemned by just about every nation on the planet, so the did the only thing they could, they just sat still.
I mean, the last one in the line could've reversed, then the others could have had a bit more freedom to move around.

 

Offline Inquisitor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-nXT8lSnPQ

They call it the "Tiananmen Square Massacre" by the way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989

Granted, many of you may not have been born, but thats no reason to be ignorant of history.

@kara:
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Lacking natural predators in this country that's not a problem here. You might need a gun in the countryside but why would they need them in New York or Dallas?


Maybe you don't. Maybe you do, maybe you regulate it instead of outright prohibit it. Should Armored Car drivers be armed? They are civilian. As a matter of fact, in order to be a driver for Brinks I would need the very same permit I have as a civilian.

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Perhaps but in doing so you're getting yourself into an arms race with the criminals. A race you can only lose precisely because they are criminals and thus are likely to go further than you. How will carrying a gun help you against two or three greedy people? How will it help you if they carry bigger guns?

Having the weapon increases the likelihood of surviving the encounter. No weapon, dead me, or lost important things, or both.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 09:18:51 am by Inquisitor »
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Offline Flipside

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Actually, it was called the Tienanmen Square Protests, and then it became the massacre because of rather obvious reasons.

And yes, I remember it well :)

 

Offline General Battuta

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They know what it it is, Inquisitor. People learn this stuff in school.

 

Offline Inquisitor

You never can tell :)

Actually, now that I think about it Kara, my emotional response to Max aside, what rights are ok to revoke? Just ones involving weapons?
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Offline Snail

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I don't learn anything from school.

"Random page" on Wikipedia is where I get my education from. Which explains a lot, really.

  

Offline Flipside

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I learned from watching it on the News about 20 years ago, so I'm likely a bit rusty on the subject, since I've never really had call to research it further.

 

Offline General Battuta

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You never can tell :)

Actually, now that I think about it Kara, my emotional response to Max aside, what rights are ok to revoke? Just ones involving weapons?

Well, we don't have the right to bear cruise missiles. Everybody seems okay with that.

Same with cluster bombs.

Now, you might make the argument that these weapons are necessary for defense against other people with cruise missiles and cluster bombs. But we're largely willing to leave them up to the government.

So it seems okay to revoke a right if it's unlikely or impractical that it'll ever be exercised.

 

Offline Inquisitor

Actually Kara, re:Arms races, that's not strictly true, the criminals are very unlikely to have tanks and RPG's, so that leaves ti to small arms. Most critical incidents take place within 10 yards, and a .40 can be just as effective as a .223 at that range. So its not an arms race, even if they have M4's and all I have is my Sig. both are lethal and effective at the likely range of engagement.

Now, if I ever see an emplaced machine gun ambushing a civilian in the streets of Boston, I'll buy that arms race argument.

-edit-
Were we ever granted the right to WMD? It seems the second amendment focuses on personal arms and the right to maintain a militia?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 09:34:21 am by Inquisitor »
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Offline TrashMan

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It's not. As I explained to Warlock, believing you can protect yourself against the government with the kind of weapons you legally have access to is Red Dawn style fantasy. How long do you really think Waco would have lasted against a tyrannical government? They'd have just brought the artillery in and ended it within a few hours.

The same goes for foreign invasions. If the enemy have somehow gotten past the US armed forces it's hard to believe that someone is going to hold them off with a handgun.

not to mention that if the Us were to face any force big and powerful enough to get to their soil, they would pretty much draft everyone capable and give him a better weapon. That would make your regular citizen Joe a army member.



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Having the weapon increases the likelihood of surviving the encounter. No weapon, dead me, or lost important things, or both.

It also increases the likelihood of the other guy shooting instead of just robbing you, thus counteracting that.
Your chances to survive have not changed at all.


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You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline TrashMan

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Actually Kara, re:Arms races, that's not strictly true, the criminals are very unlikely to have tanks and RPG's, so that leaves ti to small arms. Most critical incidents take place within 10 yards, and a .40 can be just as effective as a .223 at that range. So its not an arms race, even if they have M4's and all I have is my Sig. both are lethal and effective at the likely range of engagement.

Now, if I ever see an emplaced machine gun ambushing a civilian in the streets of Boston, I'll buy that arms race argument.

SMG >>> handgun.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Inquisitor

That depends entirely on the circumstances.

Blanket statements like that are Rambo-fantasies in and of themselves and belie a fundamental lack of understanding of small arms. An MP5 is not an automatic win in a gun fight. Its not some magic wand.
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Offline Flipside

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In gunfights, it's often not a question of who has the biggest gun, it's who lands the first hit with it.

 

Offline Inquisitor

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Lacking natural predators in this country that's not a problem here. You might need a gun in the countryside but why would they need them in New York or Dallas?

What if I live in New York or Dallas, because, say I am a professor or work for an oil company there, but do field work in high country of Utah, Alaska, Wyoming?

When do you start drawing the line? Or is even that inappropriate? No, I am not saying every citizen in Dallas is moonlighting as Indiana Jones, but I am curious as to what, if any, are acceptable reasons for citizens to have guns?
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