Author Topic: A Nation Of Cowards  (Read 57988 times)

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Offline Flipside

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To me, once again, that goes back to the question of responsibility. There isn't a person on this forum that is more than 1 minute away from an object that could be used to kill someone, it's a question of personal choice. If you lived in a city and needed a gun because you travelled for work then, yes, a gun is needed, but needs to be stored responsibly when it isn't.

There's been a fair few tragedies in the US lately, and many of them have involved improper storage of weapons, unlocked gun cases, easily accessible ammo etc. That is, to my mind, more of a problem than the simple existence of guns.

 

Offline Inquisitor

You will get absolutely no argument from me on that.

I am just trying to dial in Kara's point of view to a little more detail :)
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Offline karajorma

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The problem with saying that it's a matter of responsibility is that the same thing has been said for the last 20 years and no one has gotten any more responsible. Every single attempt to pass more restrictive laws in order to force responsibility gets blocked by the pro-gun lobby.

My argument has been that you either need to change America's culture so that you can use guns responsibly or you need to get rid of the guns. But no one is interested in changing the culture. Everyone talks about responsibility but no one is interested in actually taking it (or at least taking it beyond their immediate family and home). The result is small islands of people who can use guns responsibly in a sea of people who can't.

Who is actually interested in raising taxes in order to teach proper gun safety in schools? Who is interested in passing laws with stiff sentences for guns that aren't kept in lock boxes. Who is interested in making guns stamp bullets in order to help in the detection of crime (or even better making sure every weapon is test fired once and a database of the bullets kept)? Who is interested in requiring insurance for guns for accidental shootings (we require car insurance after all)? In general, who is interested in actually taking some steps to actually make gun ownership safer for the general public by ensuring that people are responsible?

Certainly not the pro-gun lobby. Who funnily enough are the exact same people who claim that people should be more responsible with their guns. It's all lip service so that they can carry on doing the exact same thing they've always done. I find it hilarious that anyone can say with a straight face that making people give up guns is a utopian solution but asking them to act responsibly with them isn't.
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Offline Janos

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They were too close in patrol, always leave a tank length between vehicles, those things don't turn on a dime.

Actually they do, unlike wheeled vehicles!

lol wtf

 

Offline TrashMan

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That depends entirely on the circumstances.

Blanket statements like that are Rambo-fantasies in and of themselves and belie a fundamental lack of understanding of small arms. An MP5 is not an automatic win in a gun fight. Its not some magic wand.

Rly? If I can spew 6-10 bullets per second while you can barely manage 2 my chances of hitting you go up by a substantial margin.
SMG's are superior to handguns in every way - that's the reason SWAT and special forces use them and handguns are a emergency backup.
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Offline swashmebuckle

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My argument has been that you either need to change America's culture so that you can use guns responsibly or you need to get rid of the guns.
OR you can just ignore the problem, right?  Because no one wants to actually try to disarm the cold-dead-fingers-let's-go-civil-war-round-2 minority among gun owners and be responsible for instigating Waco times a billion, right?  So we can have a little lip service from both sides; pro gun politicians advocate greater responsibility while fighting tooth and nail against even the most logical of restrictions, and their opponents trumpet the evil of firearms but continually find excuses for why now is not the right time to actually do something about them.  Like most things, it reminds me of an episode of South Park, though this was about foreign policy rather than gun control:

http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes/103621

Actually, it's really not analogous at all, but I like South Park.  Well, maybe it is sort of similar in that we as a country, after much noise and hot air, are continually able to bypass dealing with the awful, demoralizing heart of an issue that demands some real work (one way or the other) in favor of just going on our merrily retarded way like we always have.  America, **** Yeah!

 
It also increases the likelihood of the other guy shooting instead of just robbing you, thus counteracting that.
Your chances to survive have not changed at all.

Any evidence?

A few threads ago I posted something about weapon use for self defence being IIRC anywhere from 80 to 300 thousand per year in the US (based on 15-ish surveys), and other stats showing that less than 1% (or 0.1%, I'd have to look it up again to be sure) of the incidents ended up as a firefight (that is if the 80k uses was the closest to reality).

You still use anecdotes.



And another thing to this debate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Whitman#Sniper_fire_commences

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Once Whitman began facing return gunfire from the authorities and civilians who had brought out their personal firearms to assist police, he used the waterspouts on each side of the tower as gun ports, allowing him to continue shooting largely protected from the gunfire below but also greatly limiting his range of targets. Ramiro Martinez, an officer who confronted Whitman, later stated in his book that the civilian shooters should be credited, as they made it difficult for Whitman to take careful aim without being hit

I give fuel for both the anti gun and pro gun crowd this time, since the guy would be less deadly with a knife, but on the other hand he'd be more deadly without civilians keeping him pinned down....
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Offline Inquisitor

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Rly? If I can spew 6-10 bullets per second while you can barely manage 2 my chances of hitting you go up by a substantial margin.

SMG's are superior to handguns in every way - that's the reason SWAT and special forces use them and handguns are a emergency backup.

I am not going to go to the trouble to post what is common knowledge in Law Enforcement circles when it s clear you haven't bothered to look. Though, for a hint. look up three-round bursts. Automatic weapons do not win just because they have a high rate of fire. Watch less TV and spend more time at the range.

Its not a magic wand. Anyone who says differently is an idiot with a short life expectancy in a firefight.

@kara:

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The result is small islands of people who can use guns responsibly in a sea of people who can't.

Now we find our common ground, I think. The "pro-gun" lobby is IMHO largely an irresponsible entity with an entirely political agenda. it is lip service (hence "Guns don't kill people" yada yada). It seems to be fueled largely by quasi-anarchist leanings.

I would absolutely be giddy if the same people who wanted to teach religion in schools via evolution (in this country, they are very likely to be the same people) would apply those same "ethics" to firearms. I would pay taxes to teach that.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 01:42:58 pm by Inquisitor »
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Offline General Battuta

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That depends entirely on the circumstances.

Blanket statements like that are Rambo-fantasies in and of themselves and belie a fundamental lack of understanding of small arms. An MP5 is not an automatic win in a gun fight. Its not some magic wand.

Rly? If I can spew 6-10 bullets per second while you can barely manage 2 my chances of hitting you go up by a substantial margin.
SMG's are superior to handguns in every way - that's the reason SWAT and special forces use them and handguns are a emergency backup.

*headdesk*

Ever fired a gun?

Ever read any reasonably well-researched police thrillers or military novels? Accounts of real-life firefights?

The theory of marksmanship you're espousing was discredited decades ago. You sound like a Soviet commissar: 'with massed rifle fire, we overcome Capitalist pig-dog marskmen!'

  

Offline TrashMan

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Yeah, I fired a gun. I know there are handhguns with automatic fire.

SMG's are still superior. Longer barrel, bigger magazine, two-hand grip, loads of possible attachments.

Say whatever you want, but there is a reason SWAT goes in with MP5's or .45 SMG's and not handguns.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 
But how many criminals are going to hold you up with a MP5?  Too bulky, unable to be concealed easily, and expensive.  In a simple robbery a .22, .38 or 9mm handgun is a much cheaper and concealable choice.
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Offline General Battuta

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Yeah, I fired a gun. I know there are handhguns with automatic fire.

SMG's are still superior. Longer barrel, bigger magazine, two-hand grip, loads of possible attachments.

Say whatever you want, but there is a reason SWAT goes in with MP5's or .45 SMG's and not handguns.

Boy, like that French GIGN team that stormed an airplane with MP-5s and .357 revolvers?

Looks like the experts contradict you.

In any case, we're talking about home defense here, and both criminals and homeowners are likely to prefer handguns.


 

Offline Snail

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Plus, really it's the fear factor you're going for. There's little difference between having an SMG in your face or a pistol. You're still gonna piss your pants.

 

Offline Scotty

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At a basic level your political conservatism is about 60% heritable. This doesn't assert itself until after age 20,

This keeps coming up, and I have to say [citation needed].

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@Scotty: your attitude of  saying "who cares" to everything just reinforces what I was saying about USA being a selfish rude culture. Thank you. Also, greater good = humanity.

I'm not selfish, I'm misanthropic :D.  Besides, lets go back to sceince.  You seem to be taking this as a "one person thinks this, therefore, everyone thinks this."

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Another problem is parents in this country are allowed to make their kids obese and no one does anything about it. Lack of discipline. It is disgusting.

Congrats.  Go make yourself a law saying that people can't be obese.  Will never f*cking happen.  You keep talking about how superior your lifesyle is to everyone else.  Once again, "who cares?"  Go live your life the way you want to, but leave me out of it.

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You cannot make these assertions without DATA.

This is regarding the shut-down asylums and increases in crime and homelessness correct?

My step-dad is a social worker, gets his masters in two weeks.  In his office (in Daytona, Fl.), he treats and tries to help over 200 mentally unstable persons.  In 156 of those cases, the patients would have been committed thirty years earlier.  59 of those 156 have committed crimes in the last two years, including aggravated assault, robbery, illegal drug use, breaking and entering, trespassing and prostitution.  That is just in the last two years.  This is data for the South Daytona social work clinic 2006-2008.  In conclusion, nearly 25% of the patients at that clinic would have been committed, but instead committed over 100 offenses.  Data enough?

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Because the constitution was written over 200 years ago.

And that by itself means it needs to be justified?  Why don't we have to continually re-justify the Declaration of Independence?

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Bush was arguably the most dictatorial president America has had for a while

Yeah, probably since FDR.

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So you're saying that non-smokers who work in a bar can sue their employer if they develop lung cancer? If they can't then what is the difference from saying that people who worked in an unsafe chemical factory chose to do so and therefore can't sue. If they can, then you've opened a massive can of worms.

No.  They chose to work there.  Any side effects of said action is their own responsibility. 

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No one has to buy chemicals from my company they can go to a company with a good safety record if they want. We can let the market decide whether my customers want good safety practices or not. 


You know, this sounds suspiciously like what I was saying.

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You can't yell fire in a theatre, you can't take the running car because you think its pretty, Law defines what you can't do. What freedoms, besides the right to carry a weapon, would you have us surrender? The right to assembly perhaps?
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Tank drivers are stupid.

GO AROUND much?

Has anyone seen what the tanks did to avoid hitting that guy?  Watch the video again.  The guy actually keeps walking in front of the tank, even when it turns.

To refresh your memory

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You're basically saying we always have done it so why should we stop.

A good question.  Why should we?

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The same goes for foreign invasions. If the enemy have somehow gotten past the US armed forces it's hard to believe that someone is going to hold them off with a handgun.


That's why you need A) more than just a handgun, and B) more than one person.

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Having the weapon increases the likelihood of surviving the encounter

Thank you.  How much better of a chance do you have with a weapon than by having absolutely nothing.

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Well, we don't have the right to bear cruise missiles. Everybody seems okay with that.

Same with cluster bombs

Why does everyone ignore me when I say: "I draw the line at explosvies and mounted weapons"?  Does no-one truly have an opinion, either for or against, to that?

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It also increases the likelihood of the other guy shooting instead of just robbing you, thus counteracting that.
Your chances to survive have not changed at all.

It also increase the likelihood of the guy thinking "oh s***" and running off.  Do we need to find the statistics for guns used in self defense again?  I actually think I brought it up already this thread.

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it's often not a question of who has the biggest gun, it's who lands the first hit with it.

Even better, who hands the most hits consecutively.  Once again, people instantly dying of one bullet wound is movie stuff.

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Who is actually interested in raising taxes in order to teach proper gun safety in schools? Who is interested in passing laws with stiff sentences for guns that aren't kept in lock boxes. Who is interested in making guns stamp bullets in order to help in the detection of crime (or even better making sure every weapon is test fired once and a database of the bullets kept)? Who is interested in requiring insurance for guns for accidental shootings (we require car insurance after all)? In general, who is interested in actually taking some steps to actually make gun ownership safer for the general public by ensuring that people are responsible?


Alright, in order of apperance by sentence:
A) Not me, it has been empircally shown that lowering taxes increases gov't revenue, because people have more money to spend, on which the gov't collects sales tax.
B) Not me.  What use is a gun if you need to take 1-5 minutes to find the key, get the box open, remove the gun lock, load the weapon, and be ready to fire?
C) Iffy.  They sort of already do that.  There is a unique way every gun leaves a print of the shell of the bullet.  That's how CSI people find suspects.
D) Iffy. 
E) I am.  But good luck with that.

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A few threads ago I posted something about weapon use for self defence being IIRC anywhere from 80 to 300 thousand per year in the US (based on 15-ish surveys), and other stats showing that less than 1% (or 0.1%, I'd have to look it up again to be sure) of the incidents ended up as a firefight (that is if the 80k uses was the closest to reality).

That has in fact already been reposted on this thread, actually.  It's around pages 4-8.

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Rly? If I can spew 6-10 bullets per second while you can barely manage 2 my chances of hitting you go up by a substantial margin.
SMG's are superior to handguns in every way - that's the reason SWAT and special forces use them and handguns are a emergency backup.

If you can spew 6-10 bullets per secong, that just means you wasted 12-20 bullets when it doesn't hit the target because you can't aim worth s***.  Have you ever actually fired an automatic weapon, or a gun at all for that matter?  They buck like mules.

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SMG's are still superior

Alright, think that if you want.  But try puttin even 20% of that clip within 15 feet of a target from farther than 30 meters away.  I can usually manage about ~40ish % with my dad's .380 PPKS.

Dang argument, keeps leaving me behind when I go to bed.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Citation right here, Scotty. I can give a few more if you want.

Bouchard, T. J. Jr & McGue, M (2003). Genetic and environmental influences on human psychological differences. Journal of Neurobiology, 54, 4-45.

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You cannot make these assertions without DATA.

No, that wasn't aimed at you. I know all about the issue of asylum shutdowns. It was aimed at High Max and something crazy he said.

It is unwise to assume everyone is yelling at you.


 

Offline Warlock

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Yeah, I fired a gun. I know there are handhguns with automatic fire.

SMG's are still superior. Longer barrel, bigger magazine, two-hand grip, loads of possible attachments.

Say whatever you want, but there is a reason SWAT goes in with MP5's or .45 SMG's and not handguns.
Tell ya what....when you have personally tested automatic vs semi automatic in a firefight situation and not a range or video game. :D

Having nearly 30 years experience with semi autos, carrying an M-60 for 2 years and then having it replaced with a SAW for a year, all the while still using a M16A2 and low level training sessions or ranges, I can safely say that full auto is useless against single non massed targets.

Look it up for yourself, but the entire reason the army went to 3-round burst vs auto was testings proved after the third shot you're too far off target from the recoil for it to matter anymore. Autos are truely only effect for supressive fire.


So just to toss more fun in, shall we start the ban of swords?  

I give you: Grandma killed by sword: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/30136788/


@Kara  I for one would be thrilled if they even seriously concidered allowing gun safety to be taught in schools. Even if it started as a Pay per student Opt in course! Course now you'll need to come up with a means of getting the "Guns are Evil!!" people to agree to pay that tax too. I mean since you seem to feel a "gun nut" won't pay to help keep his guns,...why would the ppl that want all guns melted or coverted into flower shooters pay for it?

Or ....as I believe I have posted in this thread already....we could simply add a license system and the fees for that could pay for a good chunk of it all. Gun prices would have to go up to cover such things are recording rifling patterns in a database and the like, though that is truely a wonderful idea that I'm all over ;) Serial numbers per weapon are a great start, but this idea would seriously help matters.

Oh and ....as said before. 2nd amend only protects, it doesn't give us anything.  
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Offline TrashMan

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Boy, like that French GIGN team that stormed an airplane with MP-5s and .357 revolvers?

Congratulations on finding one specific situation where handguns are favored.


Tell ya what....when you have personally tested automatic vs semi automatic in a firefight situation and not a range or video game. :D

Having nearly 30 years experience with semi autos, carrying an M-60 for 2 years and then having it replaced with a SAW for a year, all the while still using a M16A2 and low level training sessions or ranges, I can safely say that full auto is useless against single non massed targets.

Look it up for yourself, but the entire reason the army went to 3-round burst vs auto was testings proved after the third shot you're too far off target from the recoil for it to matter anymore. Autos are truely only effect for supressive fire.

You do realise that many SMG's also have a semi, burst or semi-auto modes of fire, don't you?
You use the fire mode which best suits the situation.....however, we have veered somewhat off-topic.




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Offline Warlock

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And you realise that your arguement was favoring automatic fire over semi-automatic fire right ? ;)

But yes we have veered slightly off the road a bit.
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Offline Inquisitor

Only in so much as its a relevant thing to the whole education thing. Even though he's not in the US...
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Offline karajorma

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So you're saying that non-smokers who work in a bar can sue their employer if they develop lung cancer? If they can't then what is the difference from saying that people who worked in an unsafe chemical factory chose to do so and therefore can't sue. If they can, then you've opened a massive can of worms.

No.  They chose to work there.  Any side effects of said action is their own responsibility. 


So should all workplace health and safety laws should be abandoned because the employee chose to work there then?

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No one has to buy chemicals from my company they can go to a company with a good safety record if they want. We can let the market decide whether my customers want good safety practices or not. 


You know, this sounds suspiciously like what I was saying.

It's meant to. I like to see how far down the path of lunacy people are willing to go.
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