Author Topic: A Nation Of Cowards  (Read 58199 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
@Kara  I for one would be thrilled if they even seriously concidered allowing gun safety to be taught in schools. Even if it started as a Pay per student Opt in course! Course now you'll need to come up with a means of getting the "Guns are Evil!!" people to agree to pay that tax too. I mean since you seem to feel a "gun nut" won't pay to help keep his guns,...why would the ppl that want all guns melted or coverted into flower shooters pay for it?

Because it's still safer than the alternative.

Quote
Or ....as I believe I have posted in this thread already....we could simply add a license system and the fees for that could pay for a good chunk of it all. Gun prices would have to go up to cover such things are recording rifling patterns in a database and the like, though that is truely a wonderful idea that I'm all over ;) Serial numbers per weapon are a great start, but this idea would seriously help matters.

Oh and ....as said before. 2nd amend only protects, it doesn't give us anything.  

Try getting it past the NRA though. Pretty much every example I gave has been suggested only to be shot down by them.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Inquisitor

There is a significant difference between the "right" and the current lobby dedicated to "supporting" that right.

is there any room in your worldview for the "right" to exist in absentia of the NRA?
No signature.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
I tend to feel that if the general population of America didn't have the right to bear arms then the country would be safer. So no.
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Warlock

  • Death Angel
  • 29
    • Holocron Productions
@Kara  I for one would be thrilled if they even seriously concidered allowing gun safety to be taught in schools. Even if it started as a Pay per student Opt in course! Course now you'll need to come up with a means of getting the "Guns are Evil!!" people to agree to pay that tax too. I mean since you seem to feel a "gun nut" won't pay to help keep his guns,...why would the ppl that want all guns melted or coverted into flower shooters pay for it?

Because it's still safer than the alternative.
Ok so to convince us ahem....gun toting wackos...to pay a bit more for gun education there's a whole "to do" about it. .....but the "GunsREvL" group simply needs to be told: "It's safer than not doing it" and they'll pay higher taxes as well?  God I'd love to see this tried out! Hell I'll be double my share just to see this :)

Quote
Or ....as I believe I have posted in this thread already....we could simply add a license system and the fees for that could pay for a good chunk of it all. Gun prices would have to go up to cover such things are recording rifling patterns in a database and the like, though that is truely a wonderful idea that I'm all over ;) Serial numbers per weapon are a great start, but this idea would seriously help matters.

Oh and ....as said before. 2nd amend only protects, it doesn't give us anything.  

Try getting it past the NRA though. Pretty much every example I gave has been suggested only to be shot down by them.
[/quote] But we weren't discussing the goals and faults of the NRA. Least I don't recall that.

Now remember ppl, not all gun toting loonies agree with the NRA, nor was that part of debate.....we're debating the values of the right to have or the ban not to have firearms in general. Since we've discussed areas not of the US ....the NRA is a moot point there.
Warlock



DeathAngel Squadron, Forever remembered.


Do or Do Not,..There Is No Spoon

To Fly Exotic Ships, Meet Exotic People, and Kill Them.

We may rise and fall, but in the end
 We meet our fate together

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
'Experience' and 'common sense' are innately flawed by heuristics. Deceptive and untrustworthy.

 

Offline Liberator

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 210
Deceptive huh?

Common sense tells me the rattlesnake is poisonous and not to touch it for fear of getting bitten and dying.  I don't need a 30 page scientific essay to tell me that.

Experience is what allows a 60 year old martial artist to lay his younger, faster, more agile opponent on the ground.  By every measure he shouldn't be able to, but he does.  It also tells a mechanic what's wrong with your car, just by listening to it.

Common sense and experience are what temper pure logic and intelligence and give rise to what should be the goal of every human alive, Reason. :cool:
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline redsniper

  • 211
  • Aim for the Top!
I was going to post some fiery response to Trash's earlier idiocy, but by the time I got to the end of the thread my rage had passed and others had already said what I would have. So...

I'm not really sure where I stand on gun control. I like guns. I like shooting them. I like learning how they work. I'm not nuts about collecting them though; all I own is a .22 rifle for shooting snakes and vermin. I'm also *really* *frakking* careful with them and I understand that there are a lot of people who lack such care. I guess I agree that better education and regulation is the way to go, but I don't know how to go about implementing it. Aww who am I kidding? I always just end up restating the obvious in these kind of threads. I just wanted to try and say something on topic instead of just ragging on Trashman.
"Think about nice things not unhappy things.
The future makes happy, if you make it yourself.
No war; think about happy things."   -WouterSmitssm

Hard Light Productions:
"...this conversation is pointlessly confrontational."

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Deceptive huh?

Common sense tells me the rattlesnake is poisonous and not to touch it for fear of getting bitten and dying.  I don't need a 30 page scientific essay to tell me that.

Experience is what allows a 60 year old martial artist to lay his younger, faster, more agile opponent on the ground.  By every measure he shouldn't be able to, but he does.  It also tells a mechanic what's wrong with your car, just by listening to it.

Common sense and experience are what temper pure logic and intelligence and give rise to what should be the goal of every human alive, Reason. :cool:

 :lol:

You're misunderstanding the words.

'Experience' doesn't mean 'training', as in the examples you gave. A two-month-old baby has experiences every day. You experience the world.

There's no common sense whatsoever involved in that asinine rattlesnake example. You can employ your visual or aural system and memory to spot the rattlesnake. You draw on what you've been taught to recognize the rattlesnake as poisonous and dangerous. No 'common sense' there.

There are obvious counterexamples to everything you just said. 'Common sense' tells you the Earth is flat. 'Experience' tells you that heavier objects fall faster than lighter objects. Both wrong.

You're spouting random philosophy. You also don't have a clue what 'science' is. You also think I'm suggesting everyone needs to think with science, which is stupid -- science is an investigative tool.

Common sense and experience are also great tools. But they aren't trustworthy or objective. They need to be supplemented and checked. It's like the US government -- multiple branches of knowledge each aiding and restricting each other.

Now, let's take some cases of 'common sense'. There are a number of cognitive heuristics that lead humans to make consistently biased decisions. Affect heuristics. Confirmation bias. Ingroup/outgroup bias. Look 'em up.

Give a man a roulette wheel that's seventy percent black and thirty percent red. Tell him the last ten runs have come up black. Most people will guess red's coming up next -- since it's red's turn. This is an example of a heuristic.

Or look up 'losses loom larger than gains.' Another heuristic.

Stereotypes are another great example of a heuristic -- a cognitive shortcut.

Learn some psychology. First, you'll gain some idea what I'm talking about when I say 'common sense' and 'experience'. Second, you'll learn why they're not foolproof ways to examine the world.

You don't have any access to objective reality. You understand things through your senses and your mind. Both are flawed tools. Supplement them and you'll make better decisions.

 

Offline swashmebuckle

  • 210
  • Das Lied von der Turd
    • The Perfect Band
Learn some psychology. First, you'll gain some idea what I'm talking about when I say 'common sense' and 'experience'. Second, you'll learn why they're not foolproof ways to examine the world.
Third, you'll come to understand why you're the only courteous driver on the road while the rest of the country is a bunch of rude, frothing douche bags whose only joy in life is cutting you off in traffic.  And many other neat things like why you don't see your eyes move when you look back and forth between them in the mirror.  Intro to Psych, though way too easy, was the best non-major course of my undergrad experience.  Anyway, back to the guns.

 

Offline Inquisitor

Methinks Max misunderstands the word "confront."

And the context of "emotional" now that I read that post again...

I have no desire to confront you physically (ok, maybe initially I thought you needed a good smack upside the head, but that's hardly likely to happen). Your apparent ideology is so close to the sort of thing that if prevalent, does lead a society to that picture above. Just give up a free freedoms for the sake of the state, the state will take care of you, etc...

My response was emotional because instead of using words, I posted a picture and the words I did post were a bit flippant. After I posted, I realized I had a similar question for kara. Hence my caveat to him.

I find it telling that you might think it some sort of threat.

« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 06:40:22 am by Inquisitor »
No signature.

  

Offline Ghostavo

  • 210
  • Let it be glue!
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
What is the current procedure for getting a gun in the United States?
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...

 

Offline Mika

  • 28
This thread has a tendency to leave me without words. An incredible feat in itself.

I again point that what works in another culture does not necessarily work in others. I think the violent crime (killings, murders, stabbings) actually dropped here when firearms became available. Back then there were some skilled individuals in the knife play that nobody could approach, so firearms actually made people more equal. Note that they have been relatively well controlled since the beginning (not only by goverment but also by parents). There is nothing else to it and I don't expect it to work elsewhere.

I think the main issue is the street violence and why it is allowed to exist. It is related to easy availability of firearms yes (but other weapons work as well!), but I don't believe banning firearms would help much. It sounds more like the police isn't doing their job, or cannot do their job, or that the society does not support the police to do their job well. Bear in mind I view the issue from Scandinavian point of view. And I have a gut feeling that the situation was not like this in the US during 1960's, while the availability of the firearms was about as good as it is now.

And lastly, I think that if you feel you must carry a firearm, it is better not to conceal it.

That being said, I will not reply to this thread any more. I find some of the comments downright repulsive.

Mika
Relaxed movement is always more effective than forced movement.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Ah, the old "I'm going to say my piece and then run away before anyone can challenge my opinion" gambit.

Which should really be met with the "Since you don't want to debate, we'll ignore you" response. :p
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]

 

Offline Snail

  • SC 5
  • 214
  • Posts: ☂
This will be my last post.

As you were.

-DSmart [3000AD]

 

Offline Inquisitor

Quote
What is the current procedure for getting a gun in the United States?

There is no single procedure. There are various processes in each state, some states allow you to own a firearm just by being a resident (New Hampshire is supposedly like that), others, like Massachusetts where I currently live, require a fairly rigorous (at least in intent, its operational details leave some things to be desired) procedure including formal safety training (with a requirement to pass), background check, fingerprinting and interview with the Chief of the local Police Department, and then you may only be allowed to own, but not transport certain types of firearms. The rules do indeed vary from state to state. Some states allow open carry but not concealed (Ohio was like that for a really long time), and some states (again, like MA) prohibit ANY kind of open carry unless you are a specially licensed security professional.

Its a bit of a crapshoot, depending on where you live.

There are also federal licenses granted by the ATF for the purpose of collecting certain types of firearms, and many states have reciprocity rules that allow you to get a permit there, if you already possess one from a qualifying state.

For the record, I have a Class A Carry permit in MA (technically restricted to certain activities), a reciprocal pistol permit from NH, and a BATF Federal Firearms License for Curious and Relics. That means that the State of MA, State of NH, my local Police Department and the ATF have all investigated my background, and found me to be un-criminal and safe enough to own and carry a weapon. The process for each license took at least a month, sometimes more.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 08:58:31 am by Inquisitor »
No signature.

 

Offline Ghostavo

  • 210
  • Let it be glue!
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
Quote
What is the current procedure for getting a gun in the United States?

There is no single procedure. There are various processes in each state, some states allow you to own a firearm just by being a resident (New Hampshire is supposedly like that), others, like Massachusetts where I currently live, require a fairly rigorous (at least in intent, its operational details leave some things to be desired) procedure including formal safety training (with a requirement to pass), background check, fingerprinting and interview with the Chief of the local Police Department, and then you may only be allowed to own, but not transport certain types of firearms. The rules do indeed vary from state to state. Some states allow open carry but not concealed (Ohio was like that for a really long time), and some states (again, like MA) prohibit ANY kind of open carry unless you are a specially licensed security professional.

Its a bit of a crapshoot, depending on where you live.

There are also federal licenses granted by the ATF for the purpose of collecting certain types of firearms, and many states have reciprocity rules that allow you to get a permit there, if you already possess one from a qualifying state.

For the record, I have a Class A Carry permit in MA (technically restricted to certain activities), a reciprocal pistol permit from NH, and a BATF Federal Firearms License for Curious and Relics. That means that the State of MA, State of NH, my local Police Department and the ATF have all investigated my background, and found me to be un-criminal and safe enough to own and carry a weapon. The process for each license took at least a month, sometimes more.

So it's easier to get a gun than a driver's licence in New Hampshire? Shouldn't it be more uniform and more like the case you've just described (Massachusetts)?
"Closing the Box" - a campaign in the making :nervous:

Shrike is a dirty dirty admin, he's the destroyer of souls... oh god, let it be glue...

 

Offline StarSlayer

  • 211
  • Men Kaeshi Do
    • Steam
Quote
What is the current procedure for getting a gun in the United States?

There is no single procedure. There are various processes in each state, some states allow you to own a firearm just by being a resident (New Hampshire is supposedly like that), others, like Massachusetts where I currently live, require a fairly rigorous (at least in intent, its operational details leave some things to be desired) procedure including formal safety training (with a requirement to pass), background check, fingerprinting and interview with the Chief of the local Police Department, and then you may only be allowed to own, but not transport certain types of firearms. The rules do indeed vary from state to state. Some states allow open carry but not concealed (Ohio was like that for a really long time), and some states (again, like MA) prohibit ANY kind of open carry unless you are a specially licensed security professional.

Its a bit of a crapshoot, depending on where you live.

There are also federal licenses granted by the ATF for the purpose of collecting certain types of firearms, and many states have reciprocity rules that allow you to get a permit there, if you already possess one from a qualifying state.

For the record, I have a Class A Carry permit in MA (technically restricted to certain activities), a reciprocal pistol permit from NH, and a BATF Federal Firearms License for Curious and Relics. That means that the State of MA, State of NH, my local Police Department and the ATF have all investigated my background, and found me to be un-criminal and safe enough to own and carry a weapon. The process for each license took at least a month, sometimes more.

So it's easier to get a gun than a driver's licence in New Hampshire? Shouldn't it be more uniform and more like the case you've just described (Massachusetts)?

Its on the license plate Live Free or Die :D
“Think lightly of yourself and deeply of the world”

 

Offline Inquisitor

If its to be believed, a drivers license is how they prove residency. So its exactly the same difficulty.

And yes, I think it should be a lot more rigorous than "do you have a pulse and can you drive a car" ;)
No signature.

 

Offline Inquisitor

I think I know what is bothering me about Kara's  "just because you have the right doesn't mean you should keep having it" etc argument.

That concept is the whole basis for our legal system, precedence. Its pretty fundamental.

Maybe a different thread, but why is precedence bad in this case, but good in others, or do you think that the concept of precedence itself should be abolished?

No signature.

 

Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
  • Administrator
  • 214
    • Karajorma's Freespace FAQ
Precedence simply means that the question has been asked once before and the judge ruled one way. It isn't set in stone. Another judge should always be able to rule another way if circumstances change enough that it bears re-examination.

Certain rights are obviously so set in stone that circumstances will probably never change enough to warrant re-examination (Right to free speech, etc).

Remember that the constitution was written during a time when slavery was legal. Had the UK been thirty years more advanced with the abolitionism movement there's a reasonable chance that America might have revolted over that and included "The right to own slaves" in the constitution.

Let's pretend that had happened. Would you still be arguing about precedence?
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

[ Diaspora ] - [ Seeds Of Rebellion ] - [ Mind Games ]