Author Topic: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA  (Read 14941 times)

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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Please, let's don't get to this. A modern Nimitz and a Sobek from the FS universe? Sorry, but that comparison doesn't work.

Also, did you forget that Vasudans are bigger than Terrans?

Actually, the comparison works completely.  Of course they're in different universes, but a ship of any sort in any semi-plausible universe is going to share the same basic concerns.  You need room for the physical engines and drive systems.  You need room for weaponry and ammunition.  You need room for all of the logistical and operational stations and structures.  You need crew quarters.  You need crew support structures.  And yet with all of that in place, a Nimitz-class carrier manages to contain 3,500 crew members.  Is it any stretch to say that something like a Sobek or Deimos, which encompass substantially more volume, couldn't in turn hold substantially larger crews?

And a Vasudan is all of, what, a few feet taller than a Terran?  That's essentially inconsequential.

 

Offline Krelus

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Also, when you look into the exponential increase in power between a Corvette and a Destroyer, it stands to reason that many of the systems take up much, much more space inside the hull, leaving less room for crew. Also, maybe Destroyers have certain high-end automation technology which is too expensive to put in the more numerous Corvettes. This is only speculation, but I figure what the hell, since your entire argument is based on nothing but, it can't hurt.

Above all, keep in mind that, on the Sci-Fi Scale of Hardness, FS is exceedingly "soft." Yeah, it's a damn good setting and story, but with all the liberties it takes you should take plausibility (especially regarding technology) with a grain of salt, so long as suspension of disbelief isn't compromised.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
What do you consider bare minimum information?

We have lists of ships, we have numbers of crew given to some of those ships. We have numbers of people listed in a system. We've seen large parts of the rebellion. What exactly do you need for "minimum" information that ISN'T a duty roster?

That's not enough.

I really want to know what your "lists of ships" look like. Only a very limited portion of the total roster is known to the player, and that portion isn't even part of a single faction. I fail to understand how it could be useful.

Find a canon list of ships and spacecraft serving one of the GTVA fleets and I may reconsider my opinion.


Actually, you haven't asked my opinions on any ship numbers.

But what I really like is how you try to chew me out for not having bare minimum information about it, but that same bare minimum gives you the option to be a skeptic about the Sobek.

Where are you getting your information that tells you it's not plausible?

Because I don't understand how two Sobek corvettes are supposed to have more crewmembers than an Orion or Hecate destroyer. That just doesn't make sense.

I remember people agreeing on this a while ago - why did everything change, all of a sudden? :wtf:


I do have info. I know how many are on a Sobek and destroyer. I know those are the biggest ships (normally) in the fleet. It isn't TOO big a stretch to consider that a ship so many times smaller than another ship probably has roughly the same decrease in crew.

That's what you know...now, here's what you don't know:

1) The number of crewmen aboard the Hatshepsut/Typhon and the Deimos. All you have is the crewnumber of two different kinds of warships of two different species. In other words, you have nothing to base valid estimates on.

2) We don't have any fleet shiplists. Not even one. We don't know the destroyer:corvette:cruiser ratio in FreeSpace, just to give an example. We don't even know how many GTVA spacecraft are in circulation...


The best part is when someone comes up with a number, you shoot it down. You just said you have no idea what they are, how do you know they aren't right?

It's a coherent option, because you can't give out numbers so easily. Had not been for the Bakha's description the estimated number of GTVA spacraft would be 10 to 100 times smaller - this clearly points out how poor and shattered canon sources on the matter are.

You can't give out numbers other than the crewnumber of destroyers(acceptable) and the crewnumber of Sobek corvettes(debatable).


Actually, the comparison works completely.  Of course they're in different universes, but a ship of any sort in any semi-plausible universe is going to share the same basic concerns.  You need room for the physical engines and drive systems.  You need room for weaponry and ammunition.  You need room for all of the logistical and operational stations and structures.  You need crew quarters.  You need crew support structures.  And yet with all of that in place, a Nimitz-class carrier manages to contain 3,500 crew members.  Is it any stretch to say that something like a Sobek or Deimos, which encompass substantially more volume, couldn't in turn hold substantially larger crews?

You should then explain my why the crewnumber of destroyers is "so low", then. If corvettes have 6,000 sould and even lack some of the capabilities destroyers have, why woud destroyers have 10,000 souls, only? And why would the Colossus have 30,000 souls, only?

Speaking of destroyers, I recall four canon sources in canon:

1) Souls on the Aquitaine: 10,000 - from Admiral Petrarch and Commander Habu;

2) Souls on the Carthage: 10,000 - from Lt. Samsa;

3) Souls on the Repulse: 10,000 - from the Colossus' CO;

We have only one source about corvettes:

1) Souls on the Dahshor: 6,000 - from Lt. Samsa


We have only one source regarding corvettes, which may be a canon inconsistency. Discussing that instead of mentioning the Nimitz is more thread-wise.


And a Vasudan is all of, what, a few feet taller than a Terran?  That's essentially inconsequential.

That has some importance in a 3D environment, because the Vasudans might need about 10-15% more space than Terrans. Being taller can make the difference if there several dozen "floors"(probably not the most appropriate term, but it gives an impression of what I mean) in the warship's structure.

Also, when you look into the exponential increase in power between a Corvette and a Destroyer, it stands to reason that many of the systems take up much, much more space inside the hull, leaving less room for crew.

That's absolutely wrong - look at the Deimos, the space occupied by engines considerable compared to the whole ship. The same principle is also applied, to some extent, to the Sobek. That's something you should really consider.

Also, maybe Destroyers have certain high-end automation technology which is too expensive to put in the more numerous Corvettes. This is only speculation, but I figure what the hell, since your entire argument is based on nothing but, it can't hurt.

Speculation? Yeah...but canon sources can prove it wrong:

"Admiral Petrarch reports that his gunners destroyed the Urobach and all but one of the fighter wings."

Please note that the Aquitaine was a Hecate, new state of the art destroyer. If a Hecate has no automation technologies like turrets, then no other ship in the GTVA arsenal should.

 

Offline Krelus

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
If one cow is named "Bessie," then it stands to reason that all cows are named "Bessie." This is an example of the logic you are employing. Just because one system isn't automated is no reason to assume none of the others are. Take a logic and reasoning course, it's good for you.

Of course the weapons targeting isn'tt automated. No machine will ever have the discretion and prioritizing ability of a human being, and I doubt gunners will ever be robots. What is probably automated, however, is all the mechanical shenanigans which occur between when the gunner presses the big red button and when the shot is actually fired. When I said "automation" I mean auto-repair systems and maintenance subsystems to give the engineers an easier time of things. With a ship that huge, they'd practically be a necessity, what with the sheer number of components and microsystems involved. While all ships definitely have these, it's not absurd to propose that maybe Destroyers make much heavier use of them for the aforementioned reasons.

In addition to all this, the Sobek in reality has rather small engines. And the Deimos, engines taken out of the picture, is still a hell of a lot bigger than a Sobek anyway, and we have basically no information regarding the size of a Deimos's crew. I actually have no clue what point you were trying to make with that example.

And I reiterate my comment about FS2's relative SciFi Softness which you oh-so-conveniently ignored.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA

That's not enough.

I really want to know what your "lists of ships" look like. Only a very limited portion of the total roster is known to the player, and that portion isn't even part of a single faction. I fail to understand how it could be useful.

Find a canon list of ships and spacecraft serving one of the GTVA fleets and I may reconsider my opinion.

You want a canon list of how many ships are in a fleet.... so we can speculate on how many ships are in a fleet?  Are you just being obtuse on purpose?

You still haven't told me what you consider bare minimum to begin speculation on ship numbers and crew sizes.



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Because I don't understand how two Sobek corvettes are supposed to have more crewmembers than an Orion or Hecate destroyer. That just doesn't make sense.

I remember people agreeing on this a while ago - why did everything change, all of a sudden? :wtf:

Waaaaaait a minute. You say there was consensus.... on a non canon idea. In fact, an idea that directly contradicts canon?

What evidence led to this consensus? I would like to see it.

You can't come up with reasons why these ships would have this level of crew, but if someone comes up with potential reasons, you dismiss them as non-canon?

Why can a consensus be reached that a Sobek should have less than 6000 crew but speculation can't be done on the crew of say... an Aeolus?

The only difference is one has a specific crew number listed, which you disregard as "supposed".

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That's what you know...now, here's what you don't know:

1) The number of crewmen aboard the Hatshepsut/Typhon and the Deimos. All you have is the crewnumber of two different kinds of warships of two different species. In other words, you have nothing to base valid estimates on.

That's why we're guessing. You can't see how a person could reasonable guess on the crew of a Vasudan destroyer based on the crew of a Sobek AND Orion? Really? Those would be the two ships I would consider most important in coming up with a guess.

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2) We don't have any fleet shiplists. Not even one. We don't know the destroyer:corvette:cruiser ratio in FreeSpace, just to give an example. We don't even know how many GTVA spacecraft are in circulation...

What is the purpose of this thread? Educated guessing on supposed numbers of ships in fleets.

You're telling us we don't have canon info on topics we're speculating on? Duh! It's why we're talking about it!

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It's a coherent option, because you can't give out numbers so easily. Had not been for the Bakha's description the estimated number of GTVA spacraft would be 10 to 100 times smaller - this clearly points out how poor and shattered canon sources on the matter are.

You can't give out numbers other than the crewnumber of destroyers(acceptable) and the crewnumber of Sobek corvettes(debatable).

Why? Why are we not allowed to guess?

Am I going to get in trouble if I say I think a Deimos probably has about 6500 crewmembers?

You seem to say we can't speculate, but you yourself speculate (and even say we reached a consensus) about the canon inconstancy of a Sobek based on nothing but speculation. You have no evidence that says 6000 is too many. That's complete guesswork on your part.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA

Speculation? Yeah...but canon sources can prove it wrong:

"Admiral Petrarch reports that his gunners destroyed the Urobach and all but one of the fighter wings."

Please note that the Aquitaine was a Hecate, new state of the art destroyer. If a Hecate has no automation technologies like turrets, then no other ship in the GTVA arsenal should.


That could be 3 guys with joysticks. You have no idea what those gunners do.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
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We have only one source regarding corvettes, which may be a canon inconsistency.

If there is only one source, how can there be an inconsistency?   :nervous:

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Find a canon list of ships and spacecraft serving one of the GTVA fleets and I may reconsider my opinion

Or you could just go away and let us have fun arguing.   :D
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That's absolutely wrong - look at the Deimos, the space occupied by engines considerable compared to the whole ship. The same principle is also applied, to some extent, to the Sobek. That's something you should really consider.

We only see external components of the engines.  There is NO WAY to figure how far they go into, or at all.

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Had not been for the Bakha's description the estimated number of GTVA spacraft would be 10 to 100 times smaller - this clearly points out how poor and shattered canon sources on the matter are.

Or we could *gasp* take the canon at face value, and not try to dismiss it because you don't like it.  I seem to recall you having another issue with canon and "ret-cons" a few months ago.  If you think it's wrong, oh well.  Go ahead and have an opinion.

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If one cow is named "Bessie," then it stands to reason that all cows are named "Bessie."

 :lol:

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You should then explain my why the crewnumber of destroyers is "so low"

Ummm... we already did before you posted this.  The automation reduces the need for personnel.  More mundane and manual jobs are done by automation.

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA

Speculation? Yeah...but canon sources can prove it wrong:

"Admiral Petrarch reports that his gunners destroyed the Urobach and all but one of the fighter wings."

Please note that the Aquitaine was a Hecate, new state of the art destroyer. If a Hecate has no automation technologies like turrets, then no other ship in the GTVA arsenal should.


That could be 3 guys with joysticks. You have no idea what those gunners do.

That sounds more like a LAN :wakka:
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Offline Pred the Penguin

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
For all we know their gunnery rooms could look like game rooms. :yes:

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
That would be insanely funny. I can just imagine the place when they're off duty, hooking the screens up to their NextBoxes or whatever the hell they'll be called in the 2300s and desperately hiding them when the CO comes past to check on "Progress" :lol:
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Offline Pred the Penguin

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
I imagine the "bridge" woudl be mulit-monitored madness with one kickass control stick in the middle. o_o



Anyways, it seems most of you have missed the fact that Vasudans are aliens, and how they would go about their lives is a complete mystery to us. They could live in beehive like structures, which would same a lot of space.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Is it any stretch to say that something like a Sobek or Deimos, which encompass substantially more volume, couldn't in turn hold substantially larger crews?

No, but the question is - what does that crew do?
A carrier like Nimitzs needs that much crew and we know why. Pilots usually fly in shifts - ergo a carrier would usually carry 2 if not 3 times more pilots than it has craft on board. Some of the craft are 2-seaters.

so for a Destroyer that normally carries 120-150 combat spacecraft, we have a MINIMUM of 300 pilots. Next we need flight crew...of which you again need quite a few to service the airplanes. and they also work in shifts.

All in all, just on aircraft you'd need A MINIMUM of 1000 people. Note that the Nimitz, with around 80 aircraft, has 2800 personnel listed as pilots and flight crew.
The basic ships crew is roughly 3000 people. For the Enterprise the numbers are 3215/2480. Kitty Hawk 2930/1782 Forrestal - 2900/2279

So a little less than half the ships crew is just there for the aircraft.

So assuming a similar distribution, roughly 4000 crew on a FS destroyer would be there just for the aircraft.

In comparison, crews for combat warships are drasticly smaller - 1500 for the Iowa battleship, which is almost as big as an aircraft carrier. Between 300-100 for other US ships, raging from cruisers to frigates and destroyers.

It leaves me to wonder what do the 6000 on the corvette actually do?
It only has 30 turrets or so, so there's not that much to mantain or control (Iowa has over 100).
So that leaves me to think wether that corvette was a good representative of the standard number. Maybe it was ferrying troops or scientists or refugees?

Given that a corvette is roughly twice the length of the Iowa (ergo, it has more than twice the volume) I can see it having more (around 3000).

But I just don't see what the 6000 would be doing.



And since we're at the matter of fleet numbers, knowing the number of people in the fleet and the number of people on the biggest ship, it's not a stretch to be able to come up with a reasonable fleet estimate. Simple logic dictates that there are more cruisers than corvettes in a fleet and more destroyers than corvettes.
A fleet is highly unlikely to have more than 2 destroyers, given how important they are and how costly and big.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 10:52:56 am by TrashMan »
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Very, very good point, TrashMan. He said pretty much what I would have posted had not I noticed his post.

The others are making major and debatable assumptions on the GTVA's technology and on the Vasudans - we can't base a canon-based discussion on such assumptions. Feel free to add whatever you want in your campaign, but don't bring this kind of discussions to canon.

We don't have the knowledge(in terms of FS universe) to even estimate crewnumbers and fleet lists - how do you expect to come out with estimates? The Sobek's matter has also proved to be some sort of plothole, and that's 50% of the known knowledge of crewnumbers(with the other 50% being the number of Terrans in destroyers).

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
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We don't have the knowledge(in terms of FS universe) to even estimate crewnumbers and fleet lists - how do you expect to come out with estimates?

Exactly why he brought it here.  Now we can WAG (Wild A$$ Guess) away to our heart's content and have fun arguing.

 
Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA

It leaves me to wonder what do the 6000 on the corvette actually do?
[/quote]

well, what about reserve crew to replace casualties? a ship like that would probably lose to lose quite a few people after a volley of beam fire, or several torpedos. I'm sure that having a cyclops torpedo exploding right by a gunnery crew's ear is bound to cause some fatalities.

or...

I'm pretty sure that you've all seen the hall fight video from FS1. the shivans totally wasted the terrans. maybe the vasudans were being cautious and packing extra marines just in case the shivans wanted to share the love of plasma cannons and energy swords? after all, the corvette we got the crew numbers for was going to respond to the shivans warm welcome in gamma draconis.

 

Offline Blue Lion

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Very, very good point, TrashMan. He said pretty much what I would have posted had not I noticed his post.

The others are making major and debatable assumptions on the GTVA's technology and on the Vasudans - we can't base a canon-based discussion on such assumptions. Feel free to add whatever you want in your campaign, but don't bring this kind of discussions to canon.

We don't have the knowledge(in terms of FS universe) to even estimate crewnumbers and fleet lists - how do you expect to come out with estimates? The Sobek's matter has also proved to be some sort of plothole, and that's 50% of the known knowledge of crewnumbers(with the other 50% being the number of Terrans in destroyers).


Isn't that what he just did in his entire post? Granted, I think it's a plausible and well thought out reason, but how is his speculation any better?

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Very, very good point, TrashMan. He said pretty much what I would have posted had not I noticed his post.

The others are making major and debatable assumptions on the GTVA's technology and on the Vasudans - we can't base a canon-based discussion on such assumptions. Feel free to add whatever you want in your campaign, but don't bring this kind of discussions to canon.

We don't have the knowledge(in terms of FS universe) to even estimate crewnumbers and fleet lists - how do you expect to come out with estimates? The Sobek's matter has also proved to be some sort of plothole, and that's 50% of the known knowledge of crewnumbers(with the other 50% being the number of Terrans in destroyers).


Isn't that what he just did in his entire post? Granted, I think it's a plausible and well thought out reason, but how is his speculation any better?

T-Man used known facts about RL Carriers and applied them to the FS Universe, it's better than pulling facts out of one's ass.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Probably there is a certain number of non-essential crew that are necessary for a ship to work at full capacity.

A corvette has that, plus a few more to maintain non-essential systems.

A destroyer has that, plus a lot more to maintain non-essential systems.


Makes sense?

 

Offline Pred the Penguin

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Not really... lol

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Total strength of GTA, PVE and GTVA
Yeah. BS is my specialty.