[Janos]

Prove that freedoms are inherent to people.

This is what the argument is truly about.

You, and people like you and who pander to you and so forth, believe that a person's right devolve from the state.  That all people are inherently serfs or sheep or whatever, that prefer to led and cared for like children by some big powerful leader or group of leaders.

classy

Seriously though, I rather have a wise leader who I can vote out of the office and live a happy life than trying to find someone to dominate. But if that's what you want to do - while calling yourself Christian, for crying out loud - go ahead and find someone to suppress. I mean, after all, since you can say that it's safe for me to say that you would like to find someone to keep down, right?

I, and people like me and who pander to my group and so forth, believe that a persons rights devolve from nothing, but that they are inherent in them from conception and governments exist to limit or deny these rights.

Now, so you can take that out context in your next post, government exists as part of the social contract to provide order for a society.  This does not imply that the government is the source of your rights and freedom.

Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his own brow? But I do not believe in universal rights - they are only a part of the society which *drumroll* is controlled by an entity known as the government! There is a nation where there is no government and areas where the government has no control at all and guess what - these places SUCK.

Also hey, governments also PROTECT these rights. You know? Like, government punishes people for killing other people, governments punish people for violently silencing other people, government gives food and shelter to homeless people, government grants people means to move freely, literacy... All kinds of stuff! You seem to have extremely narrow and black-and-white vision where gubmint:BAD. You grant that governments are a part of a social contract, but STILL think they exist to limit freedoms?

What good is your precious freedom when Bob can shoot you in the head and walk away? You're free to... die in the gutter?

[Blue Lion]

A society where social security would not be needed because all the people are nice to each other. So that would be a capatalist one.

So, fantasy land?

There is so much wrong in that statement I cannot begin to write a reply showing it. Short version: Someone will always be pissed.

[Janos]

It's funny how the idea about helping other people seems to originate from (and be preferred by) godless atheist scum whereas the ideal society of good Christians [generalization warning] seems to be a model where the state only has the most rudimentary functions (safety, jurisdiction) and everyone basically has to get along on their own or perish.

I can explain this! This is a very American idea and you're wrong; its not weird, its pervert!

Ok hey ho let's go! Ever since the immigrants settled in the states, they for some reason started to view religion a bit differently. It was a common thing to talk about. It was not private. A good citizen was a Christian citizen, and **** those Presbyterians/mormons/Lutherans etc.

Time goes on and the idea that a good American is devoutedly Christian is embedded in the society. At some point some idiot gets an idea that a good American is also devoutedly pro-market. BOOTSTRAPS! People die and that period goes away and we emerge into the 1940s. Good Christian americans.

Now these same guys who still think that JESUS=EXCELLENT don't really read the Bible, they just know this is a good thing, right? And that free market is a good thing, right? So no contradiction. They're both good! We're all set for the final stage of the perversion: After World War 2 people start to lobby for uncontrolled markets, completely free trade and so on. This is, of course, because the Markets Must Prosper! The politicans agree. The public narrative is turned into "Free Capitalism = EXCELLENT". This adds to the previous Christian angle. Time goes on and the same parties who had driven the free market capitalism (again) infiltrate the Republican party as well. Same time devoutly Christian and rabidly pro-market, these right-wing politicians start to dismantle all the social security nets built so far, always yammering how Christian and good they are and how this... this Amtrak is a bane to society. And people, they take it, hook line and sinker! I mean, these business owners and the politicians they control, they say they are Christian and they want to scrap the public funding for some project, they have to be good Christians, it is I who is in error, I must now quickly recalibrate my Christometer! Business laughs since people are so easy to control. Say that Christianity is about juggling? They'll juggle, eventually.

The result is completely unbeliavable: from the very compassionate writings of a disobedient proto-hippie - and his teachings had influenced proto-communistic societies weeeeell before 1900s, mind you! - these people take some parts but completely miss the "love thy neighbour" bit. They also become proponents of essentially ****ing the poor in the ass, because there is no other way you can describe the inherently suicidial policies the right-wing has pursued for the last 40 years. Since these both are "good" the followers do not really see the contradiction. After all, if two things are good they cannot contradict themselves, right? So now we have vocal Christians who have absolutely no qualms whatsoever to let orphans live in the street, AIDS patients lacking medicine and giving more money to the military.

There's also a comedic side of the coin to this: since everything good must be the same thing, so must be everything bad. Have you noticed lately how people completely confuse socialism, communism, atheism and fascism? That's the same thing, only reversed: these things are bad, therefore they are the same!

[Scotty]

Without government, I decide I would really enjoy eating you for lunch. Where is the right to life at that moment?

Your stuff looks really pretty. No cops to stop me, looks like they're mine. What right to property?

In my own hands.  It does not come from some government.  Oh, you want to take something from me, or try to kill me?  Go ahead and try.  I have guns  .

(lol, why can't you post stuff like this on the 'Nation of Cowards' thread?)

When you come right down to it, to me there seem to be two rights, no more, no less:  The right to have lived, and the right to make choices.  Anything else is a priviledge either given to you or that you take.

[General Battuta]

Without government, I decide I would really enjoy eating you for lunch. Where is the right to life at that moment?

Your stuff looks really pretty. No cops to stop me, looks like they're mine. What right to property?

In my own hands.  It does not come from some government.  Oh, you want to take something from me, or try to kill me?  Go ahead and try.  I have guns  .

(lol, why can't you post stuff like this on the 'Nation of Cowards' thread?)

When you come right down to it, to me there seem to be two rights, no more, no less:  The right to have lived, and the right to make choices.  Anything else is a priviledge either given to you or that you take

If anyone could agree on what belonged to who, and who needs what, and that it's not justifiable to take things, that'd be a decent worldview...but as it is it doesn't stand up to reality.

People are very, very flawed. For example, if you used your firearm to regularly deter crime, you'd be much more likely to kill Black individuals, just because of subconscious stereotypic associations. There's no way to discipline yourself out of it.

[Janos]

Without government, I decide I would really enjoy eating you for lunch. Where is the right to life at that moment?

Your stuff looks really pretty. No cops to stop me, looks like they're mine. What right to property?

In my own hands.  It does not come from some government.  Oh, you want to take something from me, or try to kill me?  Go ahead and try.  I have guns  .

I have just a place for you!

It's in the Horn of Africa!

(lol, why can't you post stuff like this on the 'Nation of Cowards' thread?)

We need a bigass "right vs. left talking points deathmatch" thread

When you come right down to it, to me there seem to be two rights, no more, no less:  The right to have lived, and the right to make choices.  Anything else is a priviledge either given to you or that you take.

Everyone makes choices all the time, the only thing that varies is the scope. Making a simple fact of life a right strips away the importance of rights, wouldn't you say? I have a right to breathe, that's my ultimate right! **** someone took it away now i'm dead **** these rights.

The right to live is also really banal: you have a right to live but no right to healthcare or food -> tot. It's a goal, not means.

[Nuclear1]

When you come right down to it, to me there seem to be two rights, no more, no less:  The right to have lived, and the right to make choices.  Anything else is a priviledge either given to you or that you take.

Ok.

So.

Children born to crack-addicted mothers and who have no other choice than to grow up in the violent and dirty inner city.
Ethiopians and Sudanese who have no means of travel or acquiring basic food or shelter.
People who develop debilitating health conditions because of environmental pollution or someone else's actions.

What you're saying is essentially "**** them", right?  Well, it's clear you've never been in a situation where you've just been unlucky or forces beyond your control have affected your ability to live, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Tell you what, I'll come and take all your money, your clothes, and everything you take for granted.  You've got nowhere to go, no means to survive.  Those soup kitchens, unemployment benefits, the free healthcare, and welfare are all looking pretty tempting, right? 

You know, not everyone who gets on social security and the evil socialist government welfare programs are there because they're lazy ****s who don't want to work or made the wrong choices in life. 

[Snail]

[Liberator]

Children born to crack-addicted mothers and who have no other choice than to grow up in the violent and dirty inner city.

So the solution is to perpetuate the circumstances that lead to the mother getting addicted to crack in the first place?

Ethiopians and Sudanese who have no means of travel or acquiring basic food or shelter.

Why do they not have any means of travel or acquiring basic food and shelter?  Is it a nation of quadriplegics?

People who develop debilitating health conditions because of environmental pollution or someone else's actions.

Why is it my responsibility to clean up other peoples messes?

[Janos]

Children born to crack-addicted mothers and who have no other choice than to grow up in the violent and dirty inner city.

So the solution is to perpetuate the circumstances that lead to the mother getting addicted to crack in the first place?

What would you mean by this in this particular context?

Why do they not have any means of travel or acquiring basic food and shelter?  Is it a nation of quadriplegics?

ffffffffffffff

Why is it my responsibility to clean up other peoples messes?

FFFFFFFFFFFFFF

the stench of misanthropy is strong in here

[Nuclear1]

Children born to crack-addicted mothers and who have no other choice than to grow up in the violent and dirty inner city.

So the solution is to perpetuate the circumstances that lead to the mother getting addicted to crack in the first place?

Social security and welfare are not precedents to someone being addicted to crack.
The perpetuation of an addictive substance known as crack is a precedent to someone being addicted to crack.

Ethiopians and Sudanese who have no means of travel or acquiring basic food or shelter.

Why do they not have any means of travel or acquiring basic food and shelter?  Is it a nation of quadriplegics?

So, it's their fault their countries are plunged in civil war, famine, and drought?  Or that the Sudanese government is involved in ethnic cleansing and genocide?  Given Sudan's vast land and heavy rainfall, it has a huge potential to be a breadbasket for Africa, but the government has failed to capitalize on that.  So, people starve, not because they're lazy, but because of outside circumstances.

Since you want to be snide and assume that just having legs and arms to move around with is enough to get someone shelter and food, then let's talk that.  Suppose Sudanese and Ethiopians flee to somewhere else, where would they go?  The Sahara to the west?  The largely-unarable and already-overpopulated Egypt to the North?  Or south to Somalia?  Where do they go?  Do you have a solution, or are you so blinded by an unfounded idea that all poor people are lazy or all people who starve are stupid that you can't possibly be brought to analyze people's environments or their situations?

People who develop debilitating health conditions because of environmental pollution or someone else's actions.

Why is it my responsibility to clean up other peoples messes?

Because your Christian self wants to make life better for the people around you.
Because you want to be a good steward of the world your Lord gave you.
Because Jesus H. ****ing Christ himself told you to be a nice guy to people around you.
Because every single monotheistic religious text from the Middle East has told you that charity, humility, and kindness are the holiest of virtues.

Or, if you want to play on the selfish plane, then you'll want to clean up those messes, because you may very well be affected by them in the future as well.

[General Battuta]

That last bit was particularly well-said, nuclear.

You're like the anti-Nuke!

[Janos]

That last bit was particularly well-said, nuclear.

You're like the anti-Nuke!

I don't think the basic human decency works around here

[Kosh]

Because your Christian self wants to make life better for the people around you.
Because you want to be a good steward of the world your Lord gave you.
Because Jesus H. ****ing Christ himself told you to be a nice guy to people around you.
Because every single monotheistic religious text from the Middle East has told you that charity, humility, and kindness are the holiest of virtues.

QFT. I'll go a step further and say quite a few "good" christians (not all obviously) don't really care about the earth or the people on it. Why should they? They believe the end of the world will come in their lifetime and after that we will get a new earth, so why bother caring about this one?

[peterv]

They believe the end of the world will come in their lifetime and after that we will get a new earth, so why bother caring about this one?

If they believe this thing they seriously need to reed their books.
The new testament is full of "living instructions" from God himself.

[Blue Lion]

In my own hands.  It does not come from some government.  Oh, you want to take something from me, or try to kill me?  Go ahead and try.  I have guns  .

Let's say I have bigger guns? (I don't). It's not really a right if someone can take it away with no recourse. What about people without guns? Do they have a right to life?

When you come right down to it, to me there seem to be two rights, no more, no less:  The right to have lived, and the right to make choices.  Anything else is a priviledge either given to you or that you take.

They are all privileges. The two rights you've listed can be removed. Only the actions of a society can stop that. No hand of god will come down and stop me if for some crazy reason I start force sterilizing people and putting them in boxes.

[Slasher]

I'm not sure if it's misanthropy I'm detecting or a very cold, calculating logic devoid of any empathy. 

It's funny because at least one person was advocating free markets earlier in this thread on the basis of human nature.  Is it really so out of bounds of human nature to go out on a limb for another, possibly help a person or people out at *gasp* possible detriment to oneself?   

Kosh has a funny point too.  These people dismiss climate change with appalling nonchalance but in their hubris forget to check themselves when they complain about the financial burden their kids will endure due to "that huge deficit" and "gubment spending."  It's like, "I don't care about the future, the Rapture will take care of ev-wait, higher taxes for my kids?  PSYCHE!"

One final thing before I go.  That bit about walking out of the Sudan was cute.  I'm glad it's not a bigass country where crazy horse-mounted Kalashnikov gunmen roam the wilderness unchecked and potable water might be hard to come by.  I'm sure everyone that posts on these forums (0%) has made a trek like that before.

As Janos said, FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF FFFFFFFFFFFFFF


FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF Fff

[High Max]

.

[Liberator]

QFT. I'll go a step further and say quite a few "good" christians (not all obviously) don't really care about the earth or the people on it. Why should they? They believe the end of the world will come in their lifetime and after that we will get a new earth, so why bother caring about this one?

That is the most inane, uneducated statement I've ever heard.

Humans of every generation have read prophecy from many sources and determined that they were living in the "End Times".  Most prophecy is like that, vague to the point of illegibility.  Only a few sources are detailed enough so that the faithful, and anyone else who cares to read it will recognize what is happening.

Humanity has this peculiar fixation with the world ending.  I guess it has to do with some deep seated "revenge" thing or sommat.  The End Times, when ever they come, will be rightly feared as they will be the most tumultuous times any human will have ever seen.  I can speak for my self, and at least most of the local congregations around here, when I say that while we don't desire the apocalypse, we still want to be prepared for it.  To listen to you, you make out like every Christian is working daily to bring the End Times upon us....

[Blue Lion]

Are you saying there are no Christians who kinda skirt around the word of Christ and look only to making it to heaven themselves?