[Scotty]

Huh?  What religious texts?  I don't recall bringing anything like that up (or seeing anyone else do so), at least for this section of the argument.

[iamzack]

their argument is based on emotional responses and religious texts.

i don't think that they will see things our way, or that we will see things their way.

Shut up if you don't know what you're talking about.

[Turambar]

what?  it all comes down to what's alive, what's human, and what's ok to kill.

[General Battuta]

Hrm. After some good argument on iamzack's part, I now find myself convinced of her point of view.

I now support abortion rights on the basis of a woman's right to control her own body. (Previously I would have considered this important, but not alone sufficient.) Nothing else seems necessary, though some addditional arguments are valid and strong as well.

I'm not sure I would support third trimester abortions except in the case of health issues, but I'm not sure it's my place to decide or dictate.

[iamzack]

i cant imagine babby bein carried to 3rdmester and then aborte for any reason but health

[karajorma]

But as you continually claim, it's not about blame. It's about responsibility. You are responsible for the guy's death after all.

Am I? Like I said, your analogy doesn't work.

Why? You keep claiming that but you fail to explain why.

Why if you cause an accident are you not responsible for a person's death but if you accidentally get pregnant are you responsible for the new life?

Remember that you can't blame the woman and say it's her fault for getting pregnant in the first place as you've already rejected that argument.

Never heard any priest I know even mention that method. Ever.
It's outdated and was used in the time when people didn't know better or had no better way.

They did say abstinence. If not abstinance, condoms or some other form of contraception.

So we're back to you telling the pope he's wrong again? Cause that is the method of family planning that is still being pushed by the Catholic church. Roman Catholics are not allowed to use condoms.

As for abstinence. Since only married people are supposed to be screwing, the rhythm method is mostly aimed at married couples. Are you seriously telling me that married Roman Catholic couples should abstain from sex except when they want to have children? And that once they've had all the children they want to have they should abstain completely?

[General Battuta]

i cant imagine babby bein carried to 3rdmester and then aborte for any reason but health

How is babby formed?

[Nuclear1]

i cant imagine babby bein carried to 3rdmester and then aborte for any reason but health

How is babby formed?

By combining "baby" and an alcoholic iamzack

[Flipside]

i cant imagine babby bein carried to 3rdmester and then aborte for any reason but health

How is babby formed?

By combining anyone and an alcoholic iamzack

Fixed. Sorry Zack, couldn't help it

[Liberator]

Why if you cause an accident are you not responsible for a person's death but if you accidentally get pregnant are you responsible for the new life?

Because it's a death, regardless of who was responsible or suffered because of it, it's an end of something.

Pregnancy, accidental or not, is not an ending, it's the beginning of a new life that will suffer if it's creators don't do everything in they're power to prevent that suffering, even if it means they'll never see that life after it's delivered into this world.

Contrary to what a lot of you think, I'm not some heartless creep who spouts homilies and truisms, my concern over the abortion issue is that abortion wouldn't be an issue if people, all people, were well educated about reproductive health.  A well designed comprehensive health course would include both abstinence and more secular methods of birth control, as well as educate the students as to the reasoning behind BOTH.  However most parents in the USA are very uncomfortable with the idea of they're child as a sexual being.  My dad, who walked my sister down the aisle to the man she sleeps with I would assume frequently, refuses to accept that she's an adult, she will always be his baby girl.  The main problem with Sex Health, is that you can't say we'll have it for them when they're all 13 years old.  Some people mature early, some later.  I went to school with a girl that looked like she was 9 or 10 until sophomore year, she came back from that summer and no one recognized her.

My point is that there is no one-size-fits-all approach to this issue.  It's a touchy subject when a large portion of the populace won't even admit in public that a marriage is as much a sexual relationship as it is spiritual.

[Ghostavo]

Contrary to what a lot of you think, I'm not some heartless creep who spouts homilies and truisms, my concern over the abortion issue is that abortion wouldn't be an issue if people, all people, were well educated about reproductive health.  A well designed comprehensive health course would include both abstinence and more secular methods of birth control, as well as educate the students as to the reasoning behind BOTH.

WTF? Freudian slip?

[Herra Tohtori]

No, it actually makes sense when you read it in context and don't get stuck in the supposed established person of the writer.

It's ad hominem even if you don't say it so.

[karajorma]

It doesn't really make sense though.

It assumes that contraception is a secular form of birth control and abstinence is the only religious form. Which forgets that married religious people need some form of birth control too.

But then everybody seems to forget that fact anyway so it's not something I can specifically have a go at liberator over.

I'll respond to the rest of his argument later though.

[Herra Tohtori]

I don't really agree on the wording either, but considering the argument itself it's the most sensible one I've read from Liberator yet.

Abstinence really is an effective "contraceptive method" if someone wants to go by it, although including it along with "more secular contraceptive methods" on sex ed is kinda... self-explanatory (otherwise I don't know what would be the point of sex ed).

I wouldn't even call it contraceptive method, it's just preventing any and all chances of fertilization, not stopping it once the deed is done. Sex ed should by default make it clear that unless you have sex, getting pregnant is once-in-a-religion (or quite a few more times in combined mythology of world) kind of thing.

[karajorma]

Yeah I agree that the rest is pretty good but one of the forgotten failures of abstinence only sex ed is that even if it succeeds in preventing sex before marriage, it's piss poor at preventing unwanted pregnancies after marriage.

The result of which is a rise in abortions amongst married women.

[TrashMan]

Why? You keep claiming that but you fail to explain why.

Because it just doesn't. It' an interesting comparison, but flawed, since it's not the same. In any way.

And in case you wondering, if I was involved in an accident and the man needed by blood or something - yes, I would help. It's the only right thing to do. Not only because I was involved, but also because if not me - who else? If it's a matter of someones life or death, then it's a no-brainer for me.

So we're back to you telling the pope he's wrong again? Cause that is the method of family planning that is still being pushed by the Catholic church. Roman Catholics are not allowed to use condoms.

I'm Roman Cahtolic and I NEVER heard that. The only line I have been getting is "we'd prefer you not you, but if you are going to, then use condoms".

And quite frankly, even if what you say was the case - what difference does it make? Two wrongs don't make a right.

[The E]

Read this. Granted, these statements are about AIDS in Africa primarily, but the Church's position applies to all catholics anywhere, at least in principle. Your local priest may be a bit more pragmatic about the matter.

[TrashMan]

I will NOT allow ANYTHING inside my body if I don't want it there. It is not my problem if the damn thing can't survive on its own. I am not obligated to save its little life.

Well, if I lock you up in a empty room, you'll die from starvation after a while. It's not my problem you can't survive without food. After all, I'm not obligated to feed you.

Your local priest may be a bit more pragmatic about the matter.

Priest(s). Plural. Not just local either. From all over.

Methinks the Church is weary of giving an all-out blessing to the condoms for other side effects. Mainly, increase in sex. A sense of security and increasing open stance towards sexuality in the west can only increase the number of sexual encounters (and reduce the starting age)...thus also increasing the chances of pregnancy or STD's

[Dilmah G]

Come on T-Man, how does that first one have any relevance? The Baby is there via a direct action/decision of it's parents, whether or not they were aware of it. Assuming the womb is equivalent to your Empty Room, you wouldn't have let iamzack in there following her logic

I will NOT allow ANYTHING inside my body/room if I don't want it there

[Ghostavo]

No, it actually makes sense when you read it in context and don't get stuck in the supposed established person of the writer.

It's ad hominem even if you don't say it so.

Explain to me how a birth control method can be secular or not if it's got nothing to do with religion.

It's like saying the right-hand rule is religious or secular, it's nonsensical.