Author Topic: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little  (Read 65569 times)

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Offline TrashMan

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Come on T-Man, how does that first one have any relevance? The Baby is there via a direct action/decision of it's parents, whether or not they were aware of it. Assuming the womb is equivalent to your Empty Room, you wouldn't have let iamzack in there following her logic

She fell in by accident. I locked the door not knowing.
I know she's inside now, but I can't open it for another 9 months. Let her starve, it's not my fault she was stupid enough to get trapped inside.
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Offline Dilmah G

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Well.... while iamzack's morals may not be "sound/acceptable" by you or I, the fact behind it is true. While society's moral values say that she SHOULD look after the baby, many mothers lack any kind of morals, though I doubt many are as extreme as iamzack, but even smoking during pregnancy shows some kind of disrespect for the child.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Methinks the Church is weary of giving an all-out blessing to the condoms for other side effects. Mainly, increase in sex. A sense of security and increasing open stance towards sexuality in the west can only increase the number of sexual encounters (and reduce the starting age)...thus also increasing the chances of pregnancy or STD's

You're gonna need data to support that, because in the US, current trends suggest that abstinence-only sex ed leads to greater chances of pregnancy and STDs.

So, in other words, you're scientifically wrong.

  

Offline karajorma

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Priest(s). Plural. Not just local either. From all over.

Methinks the Church is weary of giving an all-out blessing to the condoms for other side effects. Mainly, increase in sex. A sense of security and increasing open stance towards sexuality in the west can only increase the number of sexual encounters (and reduce the starting age)...thus also increasing the chances of pregnancy or STD's

Sorry but that's utter bollocks. The church is against the very idea of contraception because it interferes with God's plan for humanity and not because of the pragmatic reasons you claim.

Simply fact is that the pragmatism is misplaced but that's irrelevant to the discussion. The Roman Catholic church considers the use of contraception a sin.

Quote
In 1997, the Vatican's Pontifical Council for the Family stated:

    "The Church has always taught the intrinsic evil of contraception, that is, of every marital act intentionally rendered unfruitful. This teaching is to be held as definitive and irreformable. Contraception is gravely opposed to marital chastity; it is contrary to the good of the transmission of life (the procreative aspect of matrimony), and to the reciprocal self-giving of the spouses (the unitive aspect of matrimony); it harms true love and denies the sovereign role of God in the transmission of human life."

Furthermore

Quote
"When couples, by means of recourse to contraception, separate these two meanings that God the Creator has inscribed in the being of man and woman and in the dynamism of their sexual communion, they act as 'arbiters' of the divine plan and they 'manipulate' and degrade human sexuality—and with it themselves and their married partner—by altering its value of 'total' self-giving.

Why do I have to explain your own faith to you yet again? We've had this discussion before and I pointed out the exact same thing back then. I strongly suggest you go back to those priests and ask how their position on the use of contraception within married couples can be so different to the official Vatican line. Ask them about the rhythm method while you're there.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Why do I have to explain your own faith to you yet again?

You can't. Cause you don't know what I believe in in the first place.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Obviously it's not the Roman Catholic faith though.
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Let's just say I'm not a very good catholic, shall we?  ;)
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Offline karajorma

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
For now.

Don't expect this not to come up in the future though. :p
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
No, it actually makes sense when you read it in context and don't get stuck in the supposed established person of the writer.

Explain to me how a birth control method can be secular or not if it's got nothing to do with religion.

It's because religions like to make it an issue and take a stand on it, after which those methods not endorsed by that particular religious point of view can be considered secular by comparison.

Quote
It's like saying the right-hand rule is religious or secular, it's nonsensical.

If some church had decided to indoctrinate the right-hand-rule as the only correct co-ordinate system and endorsed it's use over other co-ordinate systems... then it could be argued that left-handed co-ordinates could be considered secular by comparison.

Don't ask me if any of this makes sense, I have no answers - just my own opinions and they say churches don't make much sense in any sense, why should they start now? I'm just saying that even though churches/religions by and large don't have much in the books of well-balanced arguments for their stories and claims, their members can still be nice people who can even disagree with their organized faith as arranged by the church. Assuming that all of them are just drones for their denomination is without basis (although disturbingly often accurate).

I should know, I live with several students of theology and majority of them are perfectly nice bunch of people. I find their religious tendencies odd, but that hasn't prevented me from having many an actual discussion about things that go much deeper than the superficial issues that I have with religions (such as definitions of divine, universe, their separation and it's necessity).

So there, booyah. Then again they are actual students of theology so the terminology and level of discussion (and if necessary, argumentation) is likely better than even this forum (despite it's reasonably high standards by internet spectrum) by degrees of several magnitudes.
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Offline Ghostavo

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
No, it actually makes sense when you read it in context and don't get stuck in the supposed established person of the writer.

Explain to me how a birth control method can be secular or not if it's got nothing to do with religion.

It's because religions like to make it an issue and take a stand on it, after which those methods not endorsed by that particular religious point of view can be considered secular by comparison.

Quote
It's like saying the right-hand rule is religious or secular, it's nonsensical.

If some church had decided to indoctrinate the right-hand-rule as the only correct co-ordinate system and endorsed it's use over other co-ordinate systems... then it could be argued that left-handed co-ordinates could be considered secular by comparison.

Don't ask me if any of this makes sense, I have no answers - just my own opinions and they say churches don't make much sense in any sense, why should they start now? I'm just saying that even though churches/religions by and large don't have much in the books of well-balanced arguments for their stories and claims, their members can still be nice people who can even disagree with their organized faith as arranged by the church. Assuming that all of them are just drones for their denomination is without basis (although disturbingly often accurate).

I should know, I live with several students of theology and majority of them are perfectly nice bunch of people. I find their religious tendencies odd, but that hasn't prevented me from having many an actual discussion about things that go much deeper than the superficial issues that I have with religions (such as definitions of divine, universe, their separation and it's necessity).

So there, booyah. Then again they are actual students of theology so the terminology and level of discussion (and if necessary, argumentation) is likely better than even this forum (despite it's reasonably high standards by internet spectrum) by degrees of several magnitudes.

I can see from where you're coming with this, but I still can't find any sense in it. Just because a religion endorses it, doesn't make something religious.

For example, is evolution secular? (just making the question makes me puke, but...)
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Offline TrashMan

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Aren't we kinda....moving off topic?...wasn't this about abortion...or whatever. I don't even know how this thread started. Carry on.
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Offline Blue Lion

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
I thought we were talking about unwed single mothers but what do I know? Nothing, that's what.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Quote
Why do I have to explain your own faith to you yet again?

Question:  Why are you assuming that everyone arguing such is of the Catholic faith?  Personally, I am a Southern Baptist, and I have yet to find anywhere that my own faith calls contraception a sin.  You need to stop blanket assuming that just because the Catholic church thinks this, that means that other denominations do too.  (At least, that's what I'm getting from your statements).

I re-iterate my standpoint:  abortion = bad unless rape/health threatened.  Zack, if you don't want a f*cking baby, don't have one, but stop saying "but I don't want one, so your entire premise is wrong."

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Quote
Why do I have to explain your own faith to you yet again?

Question:  Why are you assuming that everyone arguing such is of the Catholic faith? 

Question: Why are you assuming I'm even talking to you when my response was quite clearly directed at Trashman?
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Scotty, you do have a bit of a habit of responding to people who aren't talking to you -- ease up a bit!

If you were pregnant, and it looked like the baby would be fine (born healthy and all), would you have an abortion?

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
Scotty, you do have a bit of a habit of responding to people who aren't talking to you -- ease up a bit!

If you were pregnant, would you have an abortion?

Sorry, I butt in to a lot of things non online too.  It's not just here.

No.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
I think I would. That was what convinced me of iamzack's argument: I'd see it as an unwanted parasite and a violation of my body.

The fact that I'm male contributes to that, but I don't see any reason for a woman to feel differently. And if you're using contraceptives, and they fail...well, then, you've got every right to feel that it's an unwanted parasite.

 

Offline Janos

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
I think I would. That was what convinced me of iamzack's argument: I'd see it as an unwanted parasite and a violation of my body.

The fact that I'm male contributes to that, but I don't see any reason for a woman to feel differently. And if you're using contraceptives, and they fail...well, then, you've got every right to feel that it's an unwanted parasite.

it's always the same

powerful men arguing that women shouldn't be "loose" or "bad" which means opposing abortion while the same patriarchy is aggressively cutting down social programs and arguing hypocritically about some "values of life" which they don't give two ****s about

they don't want to give up anything but other people have to live up to their ridiculous standards
lol wtf

 

Offline iamzack

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
I honestly don't know if I would get rid of it. It would depend on whether the father planned to stick around if I had the baby. If he did, then I'd abort it. I'm not into commitment, and I don't want to be tied to somebody forever.

If I could think of no way to care for it myself, without help, then I would abort in that case also. I'm much more sickened by the thought of putting a child up for adoption than I am by killing it or having it.
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Offline Scotty

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Re: I'm gonna stir the pudding a little
I honestly don't know if I would get rid of it. It would depend on whether the father planned to stick around if I had the baby. If he did, then I'd abort it. I'm not into commitment, and I don't want to be tied to somebody forever.

If I could think of no way to care for it myself, without help, then I would abort in that case also. I'm much more sickened by the thought of putting a child up for adoption than I am by killing it or having it.

This makes much more sense to me than:  "I'll kill it because it's a parasite."