[Goober5000]

Shivians have been shown to be capable of opening nodes

No, they haven't.  They have been shown to be capable of using unstable nodes, but there's no evidence that they can improve a node's stability.

Why would they destroy a star an then jump somewhere winthin the same system if it would kill them? Doesn't make any logical sense.

They could have been jumping to the Gamma Draconis jump node.

[TrashMan]

Why would they destroy a star an then jump somewhere winthin the same system if it would kill them? Doesn't make any logical sense.

They could have been jumping to the Gamma Draconis jump node.

Doesn't look like they could make it out. Even with a speed of 25m/s a Sathanas is still slow...
It usually takes a GTVA destroyer several minutes to get out of the system, and it jumps as close to the node as it can.

[Goober5000]

And it would take several minutes for the supernova shockwave to reach the node.

Also, the Shivans have better subspace drives than the GTVA.

[BlueFlames]

It's still a lot of juggernauts for one node.  I'd be interested in lining up thirty to fifty juggernauts, just to see how long it would take them all to depart.  I doubt more than a handful would be able to complete the intrasystem jump, approach the Gamma Draconis node, and jump again, by the time the shockwave hit.  Five, maybe ten at the outside, if the Gamma Draconis node is way the hell out there, but not more than that.  Unless they made an intersystem jump from right there, most of that fleet got toasted.

That said, logic and reason might not have been the guiding principles behind the decision.  As alien as they are, the shivans might have come down with a bad case of human desperation at the last moment, looking for any chance, no matter how slim, to survive their own superweapon.  Just a thought.

[Krelus]

It's still a lot of juggernauts for one node.  I'd be interested in lining up thirty to fifty juggernauts, just to see how long it would take them all to depart.  I doubt more than a handful would be able to complete the intrasystem jump, approach the Gamma Draconis node, and jump again, by the time the shockwave hit.  Five, maybe ten at the outside, if the Gamma Draconis node is way the hell out there, but not more than that.  Unless they made an intersystem jump from right there, most of that fleet got toasted.

That said, logic and reason might not have been the guiding principles behind the decision.  As alien as they are, the shivans might have come down with a bad case of human desperation at the last moment, looking for any chance, no matter how slim, to survive their own superweapon.  Just a thought.

There was Petrarch's idea of them using the supernova to somehow travel to another place. Or they might have simply been hiding from the shockwave in Subspace. We don't know for sure if it's possible to just sit in the tunnel, not going anywhere for an intra-system jump.

[BlueFlames]

There was Petrarch's idea of them using the supernova to somehow travel to another place.

I rather figured that one went without saying, but yes, that possibility exists.

Or they might have simply been hiding from the shockwave in Subspace. We don't know for sure if it's possible to just sit in the tunnel, not going anywhere for an intra-system jump.

At first, I was going to say that this was barmy.  They might avoid the shockwave by popping into subspace, but if they pop back out inside a couple of centuries, the nebula will still be hot enough to toast their ships.

That's thinking in a pretty human timeframe, though.  What if the shivans can loiter in subspace for millenia or eons?  Certainly long enough for a nebula to cool, and anybody witnessing their return would see what appears to be an intersystem jump being made without the use of a node.  The shivans may have been waiting in Ross 128 and/or the nebula beyond Gamma Draconis, having never left after completing their previous operations.

An interesting thought to toy around with....

[General Battuta]

Y'know, that's not a bad idea at all.

[NGTM-1R]

They may not even need the nebula to cool for that. Like we've noted before, these ships are able to withstand direct hits by antimatter weapons. Hurting them with directed energy weaponry requires immense amounts of output. An environment like a nebular supernova remenant, though young, might simply be too dispersed to actually effect them. (In fact, these ships have already been exposed to such a dense, high-energy nebular environment, in the Nebular Campaign, and withstood it.)

I think it's telling that the End Part 2 cutscenes do not say "the Shivans blew up Capella, and our people are safe". They say "we sealed off the system, and our people are safe". The implacation is obvious.

[BlueFlames]

I think it's telling that the End Part 2 cutscenes do not say "the Shivans blew up Capella, and our people are safe". They say "we sealed off the system, and our people are safe". The implacation is obvious.

Humans are arrogant [explicatives removed as a matter of good taste] who wouldn't dare share credit with their enemies for anything?  You may be reading too deep into the quote.  The system was sealed, and the shivans did a good job thinning their own herd.  One was a GTVA plan, and the other was an unexpected turn of fate.  Which would you bill as the result of a heroic final stand, while trying to remoralize your crew, dumb luck?  No.

Perhaps the raw heat of a new nebula isn't enough to burn through the hull of a Sathanas, but the cutscene you reference isn't the ironclad proof you make it out to be.

[Dilmah G]

I would doubt that it wouldn't rip through a Sath.

[Killer Whale]

They might not have to wait as long as expected, but they would still have to wait a darn long time. Wait a millenia or two, don't jump out instantly.

[NGTM-1R]

Humans are arrogant [explicatives removed as a matter of good taste] who wouldn't dare share credit with their enemies for anything?

Oh please. Don't give me that bull****. The Human and Vasudan races just watched the Shivans pull 80 ships equivalent or better to the most powerful thing they're capable of building out of their back pocket and then use them to do something that is by their understanding utterly impossible. Arrogance is not going to be in vogue. It's also a damnably stupid thing to do in such a context; these people just fought in and survived the worst engagement since the Great War, and the Nebular Campaign, and the endgame for the NTF Rebellion. They are veterans of many battles and they know how the world works. Such behavior would destroy their morale.

The cutscene does not outright say the Nereid was deployed to collapse the node, but under the circumstances there is no other reasonable conclusion. In a sense it does not matter if the juggernauts will actually survive in a young supernova-remnant evironment; the Shivans have just done something beyond the ability of GTVA science to understand, only the deity of your choice has got a clue what they're capable of at this point. The GTVA cannot afford to take the chance.

However given their capacity to withstand damage, there is every reason to believe a Sathanas could withstand a brief transit of such an environment, or even most destroyer-class vessels. Perhaps even remain indefinitely.

[BlueFlames]

However given their capacity to withstand damage, there is every reason to believe a Sathanas could withstand a brief transit of such an environment ... perhaps even remain indefinitely.

My point, which you so artfully missed, was that this is supposition, and nothing about the speech you cite proves any of it.

[NGTM-1R]

My point, which you so artfully missed, was that this is supposition, and nothing about the speech you cite proves any of it.

Then you make your points very poorly, buried as they are beneath boilerplate Humans Are Bastards.

Of course, I quoted that particular line for its inanity, but I did in fact deal with your whole post, so perhaps you simply didn't pay attention.

We can make reasonable assumptions about energy release in a matter-antimatter annihilation. (Or we can simply use the Harbinger, with a known strength, as a baseline instead if you like; in which case the Sathanas not surviving looks more plausable.) We know how much that will do. We also have observational evidence to understand the environment of Capella post-supernova (this is of course assuming that we understand what the Shivans actually did and that the two-stage nature of the supernova is not in fact a sign we have directly transitioned to Out Of Bounds). In the grand scheme of physics, getting hit by a chunk of antimatter is going to hurt a lot more than a supernova remnant.

Yet the Sathanas sort of giggles at it. It will, therefore, do something less than giggle at a supernova remnant.

[Killer Whale]

The amount of anti-matter in helios is probably minute. Much less then a chunk. A chunk would probably blow apart the (looking for something heavily armoured) icanus.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Perhaps the Shivans were going to another dimension?

[TrashMan]

And it would take several minutes for the supernova shockwave to reach the node.

FS2 supernova shockwave goes FTL apparently.

As Blue Flame puts it, one node, many ships, slow ships.

[TrashMan]

There was Petrarch's idea of them using the supernova to somehow travel to another place. Or they might have simply been hiding from the shockwave in Subspace. We don't know for sure if it's possible to just sit in the tunnel, not going anywhere for an intra-system jump.

Wouldn't a supernova have a rather large effect on subspace?
Subspace is somehow related to gravity and large stellar bodies.
A star going supernova is an unprecedented  cosmic event - the energies released are astronomical. I wouldn't be surprised if that distabilises or collapses the nodes by itself (probably not instantly).

[TrashMan]

They may not even need the nebula to cool for that. Like we've noted before, these ships are able to withstand direct hits by antimatter weapons. Hurting them with directed energy weaponry requires immense amounts of output. An environment like a nebular supernova remenant, though young, might simply be too dispersed to actually effect them. (In fact, these ships have already been exposed to such a dense, high-energy nebular environment, in the Nebular Campaign, and withstood it.

That was a very old nebula, so it cooled down a lot by then.

Let's not also forget that being in a hot nebula means you're hull is heated from every angle - every square milimeter of the hull is heated up. Heat sinks and venting can't help you in such an enviroment. The hull itself might no melt, but ever heard of the phrase "cooked alive"?

[Dilmah G]

Are Shivans affected by heat to the same extent humans are? (Other than beam cannons)