Author Topic: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?  (Read 10667 times)

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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
Also, it looks cool, so stop picking on it. 

^ This.

On to the more interesting info on this ship.  Is it strictly an unarmed ship?  It appears to have quite an advanced sensor package on it, and there's no KEW muzzles visible from any of the pics I've seen, though this could be a case of maintaining a stealth profile against sensors (providing it sticks to aerospace rules, which it appears to, aside from the composite hull), and therefore have housed weapons in the case of a skirmish.

It may or may not be armed, quite frankly being a stealth craft they would not be remiss to mount all the ordinance and KEWs internally behind doors.  That way they are only exposed to detection when they are firing.  If I recall correctly the F-22 Raptor works in this fashion, even its Vulcan cannon is only exposed when it fires, otherwise its hidden.

EDIT>> Totally ninjad by Snagger :P
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Offline Snagger

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?

EDIT>> Totally ninjad by Snagger :P
Sorry about that.  I'll return you thunder very shortly. :p :D

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
So long as I still got my lightning; thunder is only so much noise :D
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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
I was actually saying precisely that with the weapons being housed in the case of a skirmish.  The F-22 example was precisely what I was thinking of when I brought it up. :)

I wasn't trying to prove that the Armistice was broken by the Cylons initially, I was merely thinking that considering what Adama was portrayed as seeing during the events of Razor that he would always maintain his suspcion about the Cylons (also there were some strictly paperback entries into BSG continuity that could support the idea that it was felt necessary to send a ship to scout out the Cylon zone), until eventually he authorized the Stealthstar mission (not sure if that was an executive order that came from someone higher than himself, but it doesn't seem likely).
« Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 12:21:15 pm by On_Your_Six »

 

Offline newman

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
AFAIK there is no proof whatsoever that the Cylons were planning any kind of attack at all until they discovered that the Colonials had broken the armistice by sending a ship across the line on a spying mission. The Cylon fleet does appear to be much smaller than the Colonial one and we've got no idea whether its only purpose originally was defensive.

In fact there are indications that the Colonials actually wanted to restart the war and even that the mission might have been meant as a deliberate provocation designed to lead to a Cylon attack that could be used as the reasoning for a second Cylon war.

Actually, I kind of disagree on this.

Spoiler:
First of all, remember what John/Cavil did with the final 5 in the show.. that was in preparation for the attack as well. The guy was never really peace-loving, he basically needed to get rid of the 5 who stopped the first war to get his way. The Cylons as a whole may not have struck, sure, but with Cavil at the helm, it was just a matter of time.

Also, the attack they pulled on the colonies had to have taken years of meticulous planning. Plant humanoid agents in key positions, gather intelligence, get a way to shut down their fleet..
Also, take a look at the design changes in their ships between the war, particularly on the basestar. The 1st war era baseship is a massive armored floating fortress that can more then challenge a battlestar in a gun battle. The new basestar introduced in the mini is an entirely different design - sure, it's big, but much more slender-built, this ship was never built to dish it out with the battlestars at close range. This ship's weapons are completely streamlined to function at long range, and coupled with 864 raider racks per ship and much weaker armor then in the previous baseship iteration, you got a vessel that was designed to surprise and overwhelm the enemy from a distance, using it's long range weapons and superior numbers of raiders. I'd characterize that as a first strike weapon.
In a long, drawn-out war you really want ships that can receive a lot of punishment and engage the enemy from every range, from short to long - such as the 1st war era baseship we saw in Razor. If you're expecting to surprise and annihilate your enemy quickly, then the modern basestar is your ship of choice. Pretty much everything we saw of the new cylon tech suggests it was designed as colonial - killers. I don't know exactly how many years before the attack that the ill-fated Valkyrie mission happened, but I'd imagine Cavil's plans were in motion long before then.
Besides, you don't go and annihilate a whole civilization just because they sent a stealth craft over your border to take a few pictures. Yes, it's a provocation, but it hardly warrants genocide. If anything, this event was probably used as an excuse by Cavil to justify his plans to his fellow Cylons.
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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
Hehe, spin-off thread perhaps?

 

Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
AFAIK there is no proof whatsoever that the Cylons were planning any kind of attack at all until they discovered that the Colonials had broken the armistice by sending a ship across the line on a spying mission. The Cylon fleet does appear to be much smaller than the Colonial one and we've got no idea whether its only purpose originally was defensive.

In fact there are indications that the Colonials actually wanted to restart the war and even that the mission might have been meant as a deliberate provocation designed to lead to a Cylon attack that could be used as the reasoning for a second Cylon war.

Actually, I kind of disagree on this.

Spoiler:
First of all, remember what John/Cavil did with the final 5 in the show.. that was in preparation for the attack as well. The guy was never really peace-loving, he basically needed to get rid of the 5 who stopped the first war to get his way. The Cylons as a whole may not have struck, sure, but with Cavil at the helm, it was just a matter of time.

Also, the attack they pulled on the colonies had to have taken years of meticulous planning. Plant humanoid agents in key positions, gather intelligence, get a way to shut down their fleet..
Also, take a look at the design changes in their ships between the war, particularly on the basestar. The 1st war era baseship is a massive armored floating fortress that can more then challenge a battlestar in a gun battle. The new basestar introduced in the mini is an entirely different design - sure, it's big, but much more slender-built, this ship was never built to dish it out with the battlestars at close range. This ship's weapons are completely streamlined to function at long range, and coupled with 864 raider racks per ship and much weaker armor then in the previous baseship iteration, you got a vessel that was designed to surprise and overwhelm the enemy from a distance, using it's long range weapons and superior numbers of raiders. I'd characterize that as a first strike weapon.
In a long, drawn-out war you really want ships that can receive a lot of punishment and engage the enemy from every range, from short to long - such as the 1st war era baseship we saw in Razor. If you're expecting to surprise and annihilate your enemy quickly, then the modern basestar is your ship of choice. Pretty much everything we saw of the new cylon tech suggests it was designed as colonial - killers. I don't know exactly how many years before the attack that the ill-fated Valkyrie mission happened, but I'd imagine Cavil's plans were in motion long before then.
Besides, you don't go and annihilate a whole civilization just because they sent a stealth craft over your border to take a few pictures. Yes, it's a provocation, but it hardly warrants genocide. If anything, this event was probably used as an excuse by Cavil to justify his plans to his fellow Cylons.

I gotta agree with newman on this.  The Cylon Order of Battle is an important point.  Their OrBat was definitely tailor made to compliment their subterfuge operations.  Considering the difficulty they have taking down Battlestars, especially a modern unit like the Mercury, the Cylon Fleet probably couldn't have gone toe to toe against the Colonial Navy.  This would have been especially at a disadvantage if it were a defensive action.  It was however perfect as a first strike weapon for slaughtering the Colonies when their defenses were down.  The type of preparation the Cylons would have needed to designed and built such a specialized fleet would have been a major commitment spanning years.
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Offline Mobius

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
Don't forget that the Cylons rely on carrier capabilities... they can throw in a large amount of Raiders at their opponents.

Wheter or not the Raiders aren't as skilled as Colonial pilots it's another matter. It wasn't like that at the beginning, dogfights turned to the Colonials' favor for obvious reasons (the number of Vipers was limited, they couldn't lose that many assets). Proof: the Miniseries.
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Offline newman

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
This ship's weapons are completely streamlined to function at long range, and coupled with 864 raider racks per ship and much weaker armor then in the previous baseship iteration, you got a vessel that was designed to surprise and overwhelm the enemy from a distance, using it's long range weapons and superior numbers of raiders.

We didn't forget :)
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
Don't forget that the Cylons rely on carrier capabilities... they can throw in a large amount of Raiders at their opponents.

Wheter or not the Raiders aren't as skilled as Colonial pilots it's another matter. It wasn't like that at the beginning, dogfights turned to the Colonials' favor for obvious reasons (the number of Vipers was limited, they couldn't lose that many assets). Proof: the Miniseries.

One reason Vipers may do better than Raiders is that the Raiders are carrying around FTL drives and long-endurance provisions on a fairly small hull. Vipers, on the other hand, are pure combat birds with fairly limited endurance.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
Besides, you don't go and annihilate a whole civilization just because they sent a stealth craft over your border to take a few pictures. Yes, it's a provocation, but it hardly warrants genocide. If anything, this event was probably used as an excuse by Cavil to justify his plans to his fellow Cylons.

That's only one scenario though. The Cylons may have retaliated with their own spying and discovered that the Colonials were thinking about starting a war and then decided to get in their own strike first.

I did consider Cavil's view but he would have needed to convince the other models to go to war too. The Stealthstar mission could easily have played right into his hands, giving the other Cylons a reason to listen to his desire to wipe out humanity when they otherwise might have ignored him.

As for the Cylon ships being offensive weapons, yes I'll agree they're designed for attack but what did the Cylons have to defend exactly?

Spoiler:
Was there any homeworld at all? Or was that simply misdirection to protect The Hub and The Colony.

Cause if that's all they were protecting, it may have been in their interest to have a fast, mobile defence force.


Remember that the Cylon position, as stated by Boomer, was "Does humanity deserve to survive?" Pretty hard to justify that viewpoint when your own side is the aggressor after 40 years of peace. 
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Offline Angelus

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
Don't forget that the Cylons rely on carrier capabilities... they can throw in a large amount of Raiders at their opponents.

Wheter or not the Raiders aren't as skilled as Colonial pilots it's another matter. It wasn't like that at the beginning, dogfights turned to the Colonials' favor for obvious reasons (the number of Vipers was limited, they couldn't lose that many assets). Proof: the Miniseries.

One reason Vipers may do better than Raiders is that the Raiders are carrying around FTL drives and long-endurance provisions on a fairly small hull. Vipers, on the other hand, are pure combat birds with fairly limited endurance.

Also, Boomer and Cavill called them "Cylon animals".
To me, they are like Wolfs, attack always in packs unless the enemy is already wounded.
They seem to lack the "intelligence" of humans and skinjobs, although they can learn --> Scar.

I also think they haven't been build for dogfights.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
I'm not sure they're just missile platforms, but they're definitely 'Raiders' - fast, agile skirmishers that can jump and hit very rapidly. Prolonged engagements or furballs seem to go towards the Viper. Even Scar wasn't a dogfighter; he bumped distracted targets.

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
Starbuck said that he was too good for to have beaten him in a dogfight without it costing her life so I'd say that Scar at the very least was a good dogfighter.

Just cause he was sensible enough to never need to dogfight doesn't mean he wasn't good at it.
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Offline StarSlayer

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
Actually of all the Cylon equipment Raiders are probably the most scary and potentially the most devastating.  The base equipment was in a word excellent, combing speed, maneuverability, FTL and a massive payload in a small frame.  Lets face it at the outset they were all in effect greenhorns.  Well bred hunting animals yes but basically inexperienced.  However, with the power of Rez they basically have the ultimate tool in accruing combat experience.  I always joke "you don't learn from victory" but defeat certainly does teach the best lessons.  It could be argued that if Pegasus and Galactica had not destroyed the Rez ship in season 2 the Raiders would have been on track experience wise to become extremely deadly opponents.  Potentially Raiders could have developed into immortal aces, surpassing there human counterparts after they basically learn every trick in the book.

And as for Scar being opportunist and underhanded...  thats total bollocks its all about sneaking up behind the bastard and killing him without giving him a chance.
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Offline newman

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
I did consider Cavil's view but he would have needed to convince the other models to go to war too. The Stealthstar mission could easily have played right into his hands, giving the other Cylons a reason to listen to his desire to wipe out humanity when they otherwise might have ignored him.

That's actually fairly similar to what I said.
Spoiler:
The Valk mission could have indeed been a nice argument for his pov. However Cavil was the leader of the 7; sure, they voted on important decisions, but he had a way of getting what he wanted. It's my theory that the Valk mission just made it easier for him. The only reason the first war was stopped (or rather, put on pause) was the toasters entertaining the 5's peace ideas for as long as they needed to get what they want.

As for the Cylon ships being offensive weapons, yes I'll agree they're designed for attack but what did the Cylons have to defend exactly?


I wasn't actually talking in purely offensive/defensive terms. Anything can be offensive or defensive in the hands of a good tactician - what I meant was the type of engagement the new basestars seem to be made for, and that is a typical blitzkrieg; jump in out of enemy's range, hopefully disable them, then use your long range arsenal / swarms of raiders to mop up the rest. I didn't mean just that it was an offensive weapon, I also meant that it wasn't designed for prolonged engagements. As Slayer said, that sort of specialized fleet takes some time and effort to develop, and you don't do that sort of thing without a reason.
"Does humanity deserve to survive" is indeed the repeating pattern throughout the show, but they don't really paint the Cylons as any better, either - I always viewed them as flawed beings, just like humans are when all is said and done.
Of course, both of our viewpoints are pure speculation.. we can interpret the facts either way. It's my opinion that the Cylons were planning a strike on the colonies for years, and the Valkyrie mission was a good excuse that the plans already in motion are justified.

On another note, it's good to be discussing BSG again. I was so getting tired of the trek 11 discussions - this is a lot better :)
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
I certainly don't think that Scar's tactics indicated an inability to fight. Many of history's most brilliant aces have emphasized the need to fight dirty - it's even enshrined in the Dicta Boelcke.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
One reason Vipers may do better than Raiders is that the Raiders are carrying around FTL drives and long-endurance provisions on a fairly small hull. Vipers, on the other hand, are pure combat birds with fairly limited endurance.

I was refering to dogfight capabilities.

The Battlestar Wiki states that Viper pilots are better because Vipers are always overwhelmed and survive with very limited losses. That's a debatable assumption, IMO, because in the Miniseries the Raiders were one hell of a threat.

I certainly don't think that Scar's tactics indicated an inability to fight. Many of history's most brilliant aces have emphasized the need to fight dirty - it's even enshrined in the Dicta Boelcke.

According to Erich Hartmann, in fact, dogfighting was a waste of time.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
One reason Vipers may do better than Raiders is that the Raiders are carrying around FTL drives and long-endurance provisions on a fairly small hull. Vipers, on the other hand, are pure combat birds with fairly limited endurance.

I was refering to dogfight capabilities.

Me too. The Raiders are, as mentioned above, a wonderful design, but it seems like they must have had to compromise in at least one area, and straight-up furball agility might be one. Maybe. It's just unsupported supposition.

 

Offline Mobius

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Re: Did you guys get the StealthStar yet?
It is unsupported because if you watch the Miniseries again you'd notice how different the Raiders' behavior was back then.

IMO the Raiders are awful (Scar excluded) during the rest of the show simply because the show's creators didn't want the Colonials to lose most of their Vipers (as they would in normal conditions). In The Captain's Hand no Vipers are lost... and that's quite pathetic if you ask me.
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