Author Topic: Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?  (Read 14415 times)

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Offline CODEDOG ND

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Quote
Originally posted by Setekh


Yes, it certainly is a volatile subject. But that's because of its very nature - it touches on the very stuff of life. :)

I wouldn't mind if you put your views in on the matter. So long as you mean to be informative, there should be no problems. We just have to remember to stay level-headed and this will be fine. :)

The following are my opinions. I believe them to be true, but they are my opinion - any offense is not intended.[/i]

Don't joke about Hell, though. :( The Christian belief is (I won't say it IS, since though I believe it is true, I will for the sake of discussion leave it at that) that Hell is the ultimate punishment - separation from God. Since all good things come from God, you will be in a permanent state of non-goodness. It may sound funny when I say it like that, but in short, it is eternal death. :o

Heaven and Hell are, as far as I know, not physical places. After our physical bodies die, our spirit remains. It will suffer one of two fates - either being taken into complete separation from God, or being taken into perfect fellowship with God.


Or Hell could quite possibly be the state of nothing ness.  Without God there is no life, and no spirit so the spirit could possibly vanish.  Poof into darkness.
It's a fact.  Stupid people have stupid children.  If you are stupid, don't have sex.  If you insist on having sex.  Have sex with animals.  If you have sex with an animal.  Make sure the animal is smarter than you are.  Just encase of some biological fluke you and the animal have offspring, they won't be as stupid as you are.   One more thing.  Don't assume the animal is protected.  If the animal has a condom, or if female some interuterian device, insist they wear it.  Help stop this mindless mindlessness.  Keep your stupidty to yourself.  This message was brought to you by the Committee of Concerned Citizens that are Smarter than You are.

 

Offline Geezer

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Quote
Originally posted by Setekh
Other religions either let you believe what you want


Actually, I don't think that's a very good description of non-Christian religions.  All religions have a definite set of beliefs that they follow.  If they didn't, they wouldn't be a religion...

Anyway, my problem is this:  if we can agree that God is so much beyond human experience that He is truly unknowable, then why should anyone insist that their small glimpse of Him is the only glimpse worth seeing?
If a man walks in the desert and speaks where no woman can hear, is he still wrong?

 

Offline Setekh

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Quote
Originally posted by Geezer
Actually, I don't think that's a very good description of non-Christian religions.  All religions have a definite set of beliefs that they follow.  If they didn't, they wouldn't be a religion...


Pardon me; that was a bit of a silly sentence. I wrote that while thinking of Hinduism (which holds that all ways to salvation and God are true).

Geezer, I don't think Christianity (I'm not entirely sure about other religions - but I am studying other religions regularly and frequently) holds that what we see of Him is the only one seeing - rather, we hold that we He told us of Himself is true. :)
- Eddie Kent Woo, Setekh, Steak (of Steaks), AWACS. Seriously, just pick one.
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Offline CP5670

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Quote
Who is Blueflames?


He's someone on my clan; one of his articles came to mind as I read through the topic. ;)

http://www.shatteredstar.com/ff_week.php?id=50

Quote
I wouldn't mind if you put your views in on the matter. So long as you mean to be informative, there should be no problems. We just have to remember to stay level-headed and this will be fine. :)


Okay, prepare to hear some ravings... :D First in accordance with The Steak™,

[glow=blue]The following are my personal opinions. It is not my intention to offend anyone here. [/glow][/size][/i]

I'm a bit of a philosophy nut and think about this stuff in my free time, as I see the questions posed by philosophy to be the pinnacle of all learning. These are basically my own ideas that I have formulated over the years:

  • The only axiom I am taking for granted is the supremacy of the principles of logic - in plain words, things have to make rational sense. I decided upon this because the alternative leaves no possibilities open for deduction and is essentially a dead-end, so even if it is "true," it is impossible for any theories to be put together.
  • It is not possible to determine whether truth is absolute or perceptive, but it should be assumed to be absolute for all practical purposes for the same reason as above.
  • From what I have seen so far and the development of modern quantum theory up to this point, the universe is not deterministic but instead randomized. This seems to do a much better job of explaining other observed phenomena and I am accepting it for the moment to derive some of the following ideas.
  • Human actions are governed by randomized movements of particles in the brain; inherent randomization, or in other words, infinitely complex order, can exist. There can basically be no distinction between living and nonliving objects other than their levels of structural complexity.
  • The universe does not revolve around humans in their current state - humans form a component of it but nothing more. It is quite possible that things will be centered around humans when we achieve higher levels of technology and further power to control things, but at the moment, the universe would essentially be the same without us.
  • Factual knowledge is infinite and cannot be completely discovered in a finite amount of time. Also, the "paths" that knowledge can take over time are infinite. (for example, a new kind of math based on entirely different assumptions can be put together; humans have just followed one path in this case)
  • Infinite values do exist in the universe. To give an example, if the beginning of the universe can be linked to the end, an infinite loop will be created and no further explanation will be necessary on that point.
  • If humans are not at the center of everything, absolute moral values do not exist, or in other words, there is no "good" or "bad" Morals are simply by-products of very early civilization; the laws created by the first governments of man. Over the years, they have turned into religious principles and become engrained in the minds of people for the same reason stated earlier.
  • God may or may not exist, but should not be taken into account because his existence will only introduce new variables into the problem that may not need even to be there, complicating an already difficult issue. Until some definite proof is found that a god-like being has any connection with our existence, by the principles of logic, it should be assumed that there is no god.


I could elaborate on that a lot more, but I would probably just bore you all to death. :D Also, in accordance with the laws of logic, all of these ideas are subject to change based on newly discovered information. I think about these issues constantly, so I may think of new stuff.

Religion mostly lives on because people teach it to their descendants at an early age; people have been brought up to believe that it is the ultimate. Since the people have collected other ideas after the religious ones, the religious ideas form a sort of foundation for the others; these become so engrained in their minds that they simply refuse to believe anything else, even if the facts are laid right before them.  Marx once stated that "religion is the opium of the people" - I fully agree with him on this. People have no choice but to follow their religions unquestioningly because they don't know of the existence anything else; personally, for me, it is worth losing the protective arm of a god in favor of the sometimes harsher truth. Still, subtle trends can be seen, and I think that we are heading for a future when religion gives way to more fundamental principles.

One thing that I expect to see sometime in the future is that humans will give up their bodies for simpler and more efficient mechanical equivalents. The brain will soon follow as well, and humans wil be indistinguishable from machines. The immediate objective in view, which will be achieved a bit later, is the combining of all humans into a collective intelligence that can scientifically progress at a much faster rate, but this cannot be done using humans in their current state.  (as communism has shown) It is not possible to have humans work together indefinitely and still retain randomized ideas unless a common necessity; this need can only come from a common goal, which needs to be engrained into people just as religion is today.

I have not yet determined the answer to what I think is the most important question of them all (second only to the truth one); what is the purpose of all existence? We exist, but towards what end? What would happen if nothing existed? Currently I am leaning towards the eventual assimiliation of all knowledge for the objective; although it is infinite, it can be done in a similarly infinite amount of time. We would have then essentially become the gods that we speak of - the currently accepted model of the universe shows that it is possible to modify the laws -, and the stage would be set for something new  (assuming time is infinite), but what would that be? The end of the pursuit, or merely the beginning of a whole new odyssey through the next level of intelligence? I wonder if I will ever find an acceptable answer to this in the course of my life.

If you actually had the patience to read through all that, I am quite impressed. Have a cookie. :D
« Last Edit: March 29, 2002, 11:48:10 pm by 296 »

 

Offline Geezer

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Quote
Originally posted by Setekh


I don't think Christianity... holds that what we see of Him is the only one seeing - rather, we hold that we He told us of Himself is true. :)


No argument.  That's what faith is.  Good Christians believe that they have a clear path to follow.  But why must there be only one path to God?  There are a lot of good people in the world who faithfully try to follow other paths to God.  To take extreme cases, is it reasonable to believe that God would condemn someone like the Dalai Lama or Gandhi to everlasting Hell?
If a man walks in the desert and speaks where no woman can hear, is he still wrong?

 

Offline CODEDOG ND

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670

God may or may not exist...


So that would make you more agnostic than atheist.


Hey i dont like oatmeal cookies i want chocolate chip! :p
It's a fact.  Stupid people have stupid children.  If you are stupid, don't have sex.  If you insist on having sex.  Have sex with animals.  If you have sex with an animal.  Make sure the animal is smarter than you are.  Just encase of some biological fluke you and the animal have offspring, they won't be as stupid as you are.   One more thing.  Don't assume the animal is protected.  If the animal has a condom, or if female some interuterian device, insist they wear it.  Help stop this mindless mindlessness.  Keep your stupidty to yourself.  This message was brought to you by the Committee of Concerned Citizens that are Smarter than You are.

 

Offline CODEDOG ND

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Quote
Originally posted by Geezer


No argument.  That's what faith is.  Good Christians believe that they have a clear path to follow.  But why must there be only one path to God?  There are a lot of good people in the world who faithfully try to follow other paths to God.  To take extreme cases, is it reasonable to believe that God would condemn someone like the Dalai Lama or Gandhi to everlasting Hell?


Man's greatest deeds are like dirty rags to God.
It's a fact.  Stupid people have stupid children.  If you are stupid, don't have sex.  If you insist on having sex.  Have sex with animals.  If you have sex with an animal.  Make sure the animal is smarter than you are.  Just encase of some biological fluke you and the animal have offspring, they won't be as stupid as you are.   One more thing.  Don't assume the animal is protected.  If the animal has a condom, or if female some interuterian device, insist they wear it.  Help stop this mindless mindlessness.  Keep your stupidty to yourself.  This message was brought to you by the Committee of Concerned Citizens that are Smarter than You are.

 

Offline Setekh

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Scorched Lore? Yep, that's definitely the same BlueFlames. ;)

CP, every day I look at you and see bits of myself. :) I went through a very similar stage, about 4 years ago (yes, when I was about 12), and came up with all sorts of wierd and wacky theories (some which still seem to hold some decent ground today, despite my age). Then, I researched more into many religions - Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism (sp?), Judaism, Atheism (well, it's kind of like a religion) and Christianity especially. The more I tried to disprove Christianity, the more I was compelled by it.

It was very frustrating; many of my friends were also going along similar lines at this stage, seeing if they could find things wrong with it - and why Christianity was so unique to other religions - and then, I found God. :) Rather, He found me. I probably cannot prove to you through words what God now means to me, but... I tell you what, in all honesty - I don't know how non-Christians survive, mentally, when everything comes crashing down on you. I tell you the truth, I've gone through a lot of things and seen things I haven't wanted to see in the last six months, but only leaning on God has kept me stable. I kid you not. :)
- Eddie Kent Woo, Setekh, Steak (of Steaks), AWACS. Seriously, just pick one.
HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS, now V3.0. Bringing Modders Together since January 2001.
THE HARD LIGHT ARRAY. Always makes you say wow.

 

Offline CP5670

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Yes, I am open to the possibility. However, going by the standard scientific and logical laws, I will assume that he does not exist unless material evidence to the contrary is found. ;)

Quote
To take extreme cases, is it reasonable to believe that God would condemn someone like the Dalai Lama or Gandhi to everlasting Hell?


Well, Gandhi would deserve it... :p:D (I have a number of reasons for disliking him)

 

Offline Geezer

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670


If you actually had the patience to read through all that, I am quite impressed. Have a cookie. :D


Sorry, I've set my browser not to accept cookies :)
If a man walks in the desert and speaks where no woman can hear, is he still wrong?

 

Offline Setekh

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Quote
Originally posted by Geezer
Good Christians believe that they have a clear path to follow.  But why must there be only one path to God?  There are a lot of good people in the world who faithfully try to follow other paths to God.  To take extreme cases, is it reasonable to believe that God would condemn someone like the Dalai Lama or Gandhi to everlasting Hell?


I see your point. It's something I still kind of grapple with, despite holding what I believe as true; but let me try and show you the limits of my understanding on this matter. Maybe it can help you, too. :)

The Dalai Lama and Gandhi are, yes, extreme cases. But nonetheless, they are human. The question is, do they fall under the category of 'sinners'? Sinners, by Christian definition, are people who 'turn away' from God. That is, instead of treating God as ruler of their own lives, they treat themselves as ruler of their own lives. This results in things like selfishness, which one could argue is the stem of a lot of the things that are wrong with this world.

Now, if the Dalai Lama and Gandhi turned away from God - that is, chose to rule their own lives, and not submit themselves to God, who is Sovereign (ie. supreme ruler), then they too are sinners. They will suffer the same fate that all other sinners will. The only way to escape that fate is not through being good, or through our own power; God states explicitly that Jesus, who paid for our sins, is the only way...

But this lands us back at square one. To answer this last question, we have to go back to the Old Covenant Laws, which state that for every sin performed, there must be an atonement sacrifice performed (this was before Jesus came, died, and was resurrected). So it went on... when you sinned, you made a sacrifice, and all was well. But it was only temporary, since all the sacrifices in the world that we can make are not perfect - so they cannot pay for our infinite sin.

The only person in the world who has never sinned, the only person who could offer a perfect sacrifice, who could hence pay for our infinite sin, is Jesus Himself. That is why He, the only perfect being, can be the only sacrifice that will pay for our sins.

I hope that explains things for you - I think I deviated a little there. :o
- Eddie Kent Woo, Setekh, Steak (of Steaks), AWACS. Seriously, just pick one.
HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS, now V3.0. Bringing Modders Together since January 2001.
THE HARD LIGHT ARRAY. Always makes you say wow.

  

Offline CODEDOG ND

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Quote
Originally posted by Setekh
Scorched Lore? Yep, that's definitely the same BlueFlames. ;)

CP, every day I look at you and see bits of myself. :) I went through a very similar stage, about 4 years ago (yes, when I was about 12), and came up with all sorts of wierd and wacky theories (some which still seem to hold some decent ground today, despite my age). Then, I researched more into many religions - Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism (sp?), Judaism, Atheism (well, it's kind of like a religion) and Christianity especially. The more I tried to disprove Christianity, the more I was compelled by it.

It was very frustrating; many of my friends were also going along similar lines at this stage, seeing if they could find things wrong with it - and why Christianity was so unique to other religions - and then, I found God. :) Rather, He found me. I probably cannot prove to you through words what God now means to me, but... I tell you what, in all honesty - I don't know how non-Christians survive, mentally, when everything comes crashing down on you. I tell you the truth, I've gone through a lot of things and seen things I haven't wanted to see in the last six months, but only leaning on God has kept me stable. I kid you not. :)


Pretty much same experience about the same time.  Except most of my friends are athiest or agonostic.  Which I don't mind since most of our confersations are about dirty jokes and sex.  

I battle with common everyday things that most people do without thinking, and religion has helped me to not go shoot myself or do something stupid of that nature.
It's a fact.  Stupid people have stupid children.  If you are stupid, don't have sex.  If you insist on having sex.  Have sex with animals.  If you have sex with an animal.  Make sure the animal is smarter than you are.  Just encase of some biological fluke you and the animal have offspring, they won't be as stupid as you are.   One more thing.  Don't assume the animal is protected.  If the animal has a condom, or if female some interuterian device, insist they wear it.  Help stop this mindless mindlessness.  Keep your stupidty to yourself.  This message was brought to you by the Committee of Concerned Citizens that are Smarter than You are.

 

Offline Alikchi

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Well, I hate contributing to a discussion like this (I feel like I'm adding fuel to a fire or something), but it's 12:30 and I have nothing better to do. :p

Here's my question: If someone is going to preach love and peace, who are you to argue, no matter the specifics?

Hmm?
"Going too far and caring too much about a subject is the best way to make friends that I know."
- Sarah Vowell

 

Offline Setekh

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
Yes, I am open to the possibility. However, going by the standard scientific and logical laws, I will assume that he does not exist unless material evidence to the contrary is found. ;)


Let me ask you this, CP: :) What do you think of the Bible as an archaeological document? :)
- Eddie Kent Woo, Setekh, Steak (of Steaks), AWACS. Seriously, just pick one.
HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS, now V3.0. Bringing Modders Together since January 2001.
THE HARD LIGHT ARRAY. Always makes you say wow.

 

Offline Setekh

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Quote
Originally posted by Alikchi
Well, I hate contributing to a discussion like this (I feel like I'm adding fuel to a fire or something), but it's 12:30 and I have nothing better to do. :p

Here's my question: If someone is going to preach love and peace, who are you to argue, no matter the specifics?

Hmm?


Truthfully? I'm really quite an inadequate example. It really is like sending a boy to do a man's job, except imagine the boy is a hundred times too small for the job and the man is a hundred times too big in the first place. All I can do is humbly try to show you guys the way. After that... it's in God's hands. :)
- Eddie Kent Woo, Setekh, Steak (of Steaks), AWACS. Seriously, just pick one.
HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS, now V3.0. Bringing Modders Together since January 2001.
THE HARD LIGHT ARRAY. Always makes you say wow.

 

Offline CODEDOG ND

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Quote
Originally posted by Setekh


Truthfully? I'm really quite an inadequate example. It really is like sending a boy to do a man's job, except imagine the boy is a hundred times too small for the job and the man is a hundred times too big in the first place. All I can do is humbly try to show you guys the way. After that... it's in God's hands. :)


Phew I was trying to put it into words but you did a better job than I did.
It's a fact.  Stupid people have stupid children.  If you are stupid, don't have sex.  If you insist on having sex.  Have sex with animals.  If you have sex with an animal.  Make sure the animal is smarter than you are.  Just encase of some biological fluke you and the animal have offspring, they won't be as stupid as you are.   One more thing.  Don't assume the animal is protected.  If the animal has a condom, or if female some interuterian device, insist they wear it.  Help stop this mindless mindlessness.  Keep your stupidty to yourself.  This message was brought to you by the Committee of Concerned Citizens that are Smarter than You are.

 

Offline Setekh

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Quote
Originally posted by CODEDOG ND
Phew I was trying to put it into words but you did a better job than I did.


I've had the benefit of experience and lots (nay, LOTS & LOTS) of prior thought. Like all you guys, I think a lot. :D
- Eddie Kent Woo, Setekh, Steak (of Steaks), AWACS. Seriously, just pick one.
HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS, now V3.0. Bringing Modders Together since January 2001.
THE HARD LIGHT ARRAY. Always makes you say wow.

 

Offline CP5670

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
Quote
CP, every day I look at you and see bits of myself. I went through a very similar stage, about 4 years ago (yes, when I was about 12), and came up with all sorts of wierd and wacky theories (some which still seem to hold some decent ground today, despite my age). Then, I researched more into many religions - Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism (sp?), Judaism, Atheism (well, it's kind of like a religion) and Christianity especially. The more I tried to disprove Christianity, the more I was compelled by it.

It was very frustrating; many of my friends were also going along similar lines at this stage, seeing if they could find things wrong with it - and why Christianity was so unique to other religions - and then, I found God. Rather, He found me. I probably cannot prove to you through words what God now means to me, but... I tell you what, in all honesty - I don't know how non-Christians survive, mentally, when everything comes crashing down on you. I tell you the truth, I've gone through a lot of things and seen things I haven't wanted to see in the last six months, but only leaning on God has kept me stable. I kid you not.


That is quite an interesting experience. My years were similar, but the more I looked at Hinduism (which I was brought up with), the more doubtful I would become of its correctness. When I originally began to question the principles, I actually was trying to find out why certain unexplained things existed, and how people originally figured those out. For example, as an analogy to Christianity, you could ask "What exact processes went into the creation of mankind" or "Why is Christ 'pure' while others are not?" Finding there that was no simple way to answer these, I moved on to more fundamental questions: Why does humanity exist? Why does god exist? I studied the other religions as well, but found them much less to my liking because there was no freedom of thought there and everything still remained unexplained. I eventually got to thinking, Does god exist? What if god did not exist? The latter question intrigued me, and I looked back in my own past: What chain of events led me to accept god? Why did I accept god? What if I had not accepted god? As a math lover, I like to carefully analyze everything and attempt to build a theory that would explain the facts. ;). When I learned more of the implications of quantum theory, it seemed to explain everything that I had previously thought god was responsible for, so that essentially became my god for one of the purposes.

The other purpose of god - an upholder of justice - did not seem as important to me, as I percieved that the world pretty much went on randomly and did not have much of what was defined as "righteousness" to it. As you said, relying on god keeps people stable and gives them courage to face the world, which is one of the main reasons that people like to accept god.  As someone in the Foundation and Earth novel said, "who doesn't prefer a well-worn belief to the chilly winds of uncertainty?" ;) I decided that the truth was more important to me, however, and that there is nothing to be gained in avoiding the truth in favor of a better reality. (at the moment, at least) Over time, I made my ideas a bit more precise; there was no cognitive stagnation anymore, as was the case with religions, and so that is where I am now. ;) I still have a long way to go (probably infinite), but the pursuit appears to be an enjoyable and rewarding one. ;)

(I spent hundreds of hours thinking about this during my visits to India, since there was nothing to do there. :p I think it paid off though. ;))

Quote

Let me ask you this, CP: What do you think of the Bible as an archaeological document?


I would think the main value of it in that case would be to examine how people thought at the time and how they analyzed facts. By comparing that to what is seen today, trends can be formulated and the future can be theorized. ;)

 

Offline Setekh

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
I can correlate a lot of the things you say here. You really do think very closely along the lines that I do. Except, it seems, we were born in different environments; funny that we two should find each other like this. ;)

I guess I cannot argue that any of your points are wrong. To do so is similar to arguing with the existence of the fabric of space... if you prove it wrong, then you prove your very existence wrong. Do you understand what I'm trying to say? It gets so fine that it almost becomes trivial. All I can relate to you is my life experience and that through Christianity, through having a personal relationship with Jesus, I now am certain that I will be going to Heaven; my future is sealed. :)

Quote
Originally posted by CP5670
(I spent hundreds of hours thinking about this during my visits to India, since there was nothing to do there. :p I think it paid off though. ;))


Hah! What's funny, is that I have many Indian friends myself, and when they describe what it's like to return to their homeland, they all say the same thing - there's absolutely nothing to do. They all just seemed to sit around in the heat and either breathe, think and read. But eventually they run out of books, so it just turns into breathing and thinking. ;)

So, do you think Jesus, as a person - son of Joseph and Mary - existed, physically? :)
- Eddie Kent Woo, Setekh, Steak (of Steaks), AWACS. Seriously, just pick one.
HARD LIGHT PRODUCTIONS, now V3.0. Bringing Modders Together since January 2001.
THE HARD LIGHT ARRAY. Always makes you say wow.

 

Offline CODEDOG ND

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Sort of OT: So what are you guys planning for Passover?
You know scientific probability says that ice should not float.  But it does and if it did not float your basis for live couldn't survive.  Probability of a molecular compound like water forming in the universe is around 1:1,000,000,000 which is alot smaller chance than winning the lottery.  Life's probability is infintecimal which means it cannot be calculated.

Not making a point, but pointing it out.
It's a fact.  Stupid people have stupid children.  If you are stupid, don't have sex.  If you insist on having sex.  Have sex with animals.  If you have sex with an animal.  Make sure the animal is smarter than you are.  Just encase of some biological fluke you and the animal have offspring, they won't be as stupid as you are.   One more thing.  Don't assume the animal is protected.  If the animal has a condom, or if female some interuterian device, insist they wear it.  Help stop this mindless mindlessness.  Keep your stupidty to yourself.  This message was brought to you by the Committee of Concerned Citizens that are Smarter than You are.