[Kolgena]

I seem to recall that one of the briefings said that the explosion supposedly tore a hole in the subspace corridor, and the Nyarlathotep kind of fell into it. I'm guessing that this means Derelict's interpretation of Subspace is that of corridors existing within a subspace universe where the Nyarlathotep was sitting before. This kind of makes sense, since the Nyarly couldn't possibly have been in the corridor in any n-dimensional resonance without collapsing it. (Later they say that the Nyarly's presence is destabilizing the node--this is only a few days after it falls into it, showing that its destabilizing effect is actually rather swift. Either that, or the explosion of the AWACS did something harmful)

[S-99]

You're in your own subspace universe unconnected from all other ships also in subspace in the same system. However i think it's pretty suggestive in the game that other ships in subspace can get to each other if they're traveling through the same node, and only then.

In system subspace travel is quite different since you're essentially creating you're own temporary personal mini node to go from A to B (occasionally ships can come along if their on the "friends" list...everyone leaves from the same destination at the same time). Actual subspace nodes going from system to system are different because it's a common unchanging path for all vessels that go through it.

It's sort of like when you in the back country or something (think of it as being in system). You can broady and pull all the fish tails you want separate from other vehicles and go wherever you want in the back country unpredetermined. When you want to go to another city a good distance away, you're going to follow a predetermined route called the highway (think of it as taking a node to another system) that other cars hop onto at different times depending on what time they needed to leave going to the same destination are also going with the ability to slow down or speed to catch up with other vehicles.

So, bomber wings chasing down the lucifer and entering subspace a certain way at a certain time in order to be synced up with the node travel of the lucifer so all of the vessels will be in the same self contained temporary subspace universe of the lucifer to take it out is a horrid theory. If node travel was that complicated it would have been in the mission breifing for that mission and mentioned in the game's information database in the section for subspace.

[Snail]

In one of the Ancient cutscenes, it is said that "In subspace, they cannot use their shields. And into subspace they can be tracked. " if a ship always meets another whenever they meet in an inter-system subspace node, what's the point of tracking them?

[S-99]

Subspace tracking would still be handy. Being able to detect ships in subspace while you're not. Certainly increases awareness and tactical advantage.

[Mongoose]

It's also possible that, before the Ancient data was discovered, ships were unable to obtain sensor lock on other ships in subspace even at close range, since that could conceivably fall under the umbrella of "tracking."  If that were the case, it would have been next to impossible to take out the Lucifer's reactors even if one did manage to get right on its tail as it entered a node.  I do share S-99's opinion of intersystem nodes; I've always viewed them as being akin to other-dimensional tunnels, of fixed endpoints and extent, whereas intrasystem jumps involve punching one's own personal tunnel through subspace.

[Droid803]

Yeah well it creates the plothole in that they could have attacked the Lucifer earlier...they would have realized that its shields did not work in subspace as well...

Theories are meant to fix plotholes not make new ones.

[Mongoose]

Except that, without subspace tracking, they'd have no real idea where the Lucifer was at present or where it was going.  And like I said, even putting that aside, if you can't target the Lucifer in subspace, you can't exactly direct your bombs to take out its reactors.

[darkdaej]

Yeah well it creates the plothole in that they could have attacked the Lucifer earlier...they would have realized that its shields did not work in subspace as well...

Theories are meant to fix plotholes not make new ones.

Indeed, s-99's theory breaks what we've been discussing this past week

Most likely, if one was in subspace along with other ships, you would be able to target them normally, as shown in Good Luck (and in Derelict.  I'm not about to let a bunch of debris floating in a node ruin this little subspace theory we're discussing.)

As far as I'm concerned, even though established canon is what is contained in the documentation and games, I consider Derelict and ST:R to be semi-canon.  Derelict holds up as an addition to the FS storyline(as discussed here), and ST:R, being made by the ones who actually work and develop on FSO, is to be a good replacement to the weak, original ST.   

I plan to contribute on the wiki extensively over the next couple weeks and I will respect canon in my additions, but I submit we consider that some campaigns have grounds to be considered semi-canon.

Maybe a new thread is in order?

[General Battuta]

No, that's absolutely not going to happen under any circumstances.

[Snail]

Except that, without subspace tracking, they'd have no real idea where the Lucifer was at present or where it was going.  And like I said, even putting that aside, if you can't target the Lucifer in subspace, you can't exactly direct your bombs to take out its reactors.

It's been stated that "long range scanners" existed long before the discovery of the Ancient records. These long-range scanners were incredibly accurate, to the extent of being capable of ascertaining the contents of Shivan cargo containers from a distance. Perhaps this is what the Orion's radar dishes are for.

Long range scanners indicate that some of these cargo containers contain unusual electronics. They appear to be similar to those used to give the Shivans their shielding technology. A short range scan of these containers is the primary objective in this operation.

I'm still under the impression that ships do not meet in subspace nodes unless they specifically enter the same warphole at the same subspace n-dimensional frequency. Unless you can give me some solid proof they don't I'll stick to mah gunz.

As far as I'm concerned, even though established canon is what is contained in the documentation and games, I consider Derelict and ST:R to be semi-canon.  Derelict holds up as an addition to the FS storyline(as discussed here), and ST:R, being made by the ones who actually work and develop on FSO, is to be a good replacement to the weak, original ST.  

I plan to contribute on the wiki extensively over the next couple weeks and I will respect canon in my additions, but I submit we consider that some campaigns have grounds to be considered semi-canon.

Maybe a new thread is in order?

You do that, and I kill you.

No, srs.

[Mongoose]

Most likely, if one was in subspace along with other ships, you would be able to target them normally, as shown in Good Luck (and in Derelict.  I'm not about to let a bunch of debris floating in a node ruin this little subspace theory we're discussing.)

Note that both Good Luck and Derelict come after the discovery of subspace-tracking technology (with the latter being well after, obviously), which kind of makes that argument moot.

(Oh, and what Battuta said about canonicity.)

Except that, without subspace tracking, they'd have no real idea where the Lucifer was at present or where it was going.  And like I said, even putting that aside, if you can't target the Lucifer in subspace, you can't exactly direct your bombs to take out its reactors.

It's been stated that "long range scanners" existed long before the discovery of the Ancient records. These long-range scanners were incredibly accurate, to the extent of being capable of ascertaining the contents of Shivan cargo containers from a distance. Perhaps this is what the Orion's radar dishes are for.

Long range scanners indicate that some of these cargo containers contain unusual electronics. They appear to be similar to those used to give the Shivans their shielding technology. A short range scan of these containers is the primary objective in this operation.

I'm still under the impression that ships do not meet in subspace nodes unless they specifically enter the same warphole at the same subspace n-dimensional frequency. Unless you can give me some solid proof they don't I'll stick to mah gunz.

The briefing that you quoted referenced long-range scanning on objects in normal space in the same system, which doesn't really fit into a discussion about whether normal scanning methods would hold up in the N-dimensional environment of subspace.  In the end, it really does come to personal preference, as I could just as easily ask you to provide solid proof that your viewpoint is correct; either way, we're going on conjecture based on the same limited material.  The way I see it, despite its non-canon status, Derelict's creators seemed to conclude that nodes acted on the tunnel model, so if that theory was good enough for them, I feel comfortable standing by it.

[NGTM-1R]

It's also possible that, before the Ancient data was discovered, ships were unable to obtain sensor lock on other ships in subspace even at close range, since that could conceivably fall under the umbrella of "tracking."

FS combat does not take place in BVR situations except in a nebular environment, and even then it's rare. Mere lack of sensor lock is pointless as an obstacle to engaging enemy ships in subspace. Yes, some weapons cannot be fired unless locked, but there is doubtless a means to override this even if it requires being done pre-flight.

So in other words, the Ancients data was totally pointless instead of worth sending out half the Galatea's fightercraft with experimental subspace drives for; or for that matter, the HoL sending out a Typhon to stop it. The missions based around its recovery were totally needless.

Yeah ****ing right.

[Retsof]

Hey guys, It just struck me.  Just what does N-dimensional mean anyway?

[redsniper]

It involves N dimensions, where N is a number.

[ssmit132]

That would suggest that subspace has infinite dimensions. 

[NGTM-1R]

It may.

[darkdaej]

Hey guys, It just struck me.  Just what does N-dimensional mean anyway?

here is the almighty wikipedia with the answer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-dimensional

[S-99]

I just wanted to put my interpretation of ships seeing each other in subspace as an easy to understand thingie which fs suggests how things are. I still think entering the node right behind the lucifer at the right time, speed, and position or whatever to be synced with the same lucifer temporary subspace contained universe is horrid.

If anything the last mission of fs1 where you catch up with the lucifer was not about entering the node at the right time, speed, position to persue with your wings of bombers and destroy it. That mission was specifically about entering the node with whatever time you had left and catch up with the lucifer inside the node and destroy it simple enough.

[Droid803]

You don't need to have the right time speed or position, only your computer to synch up with the Lucifer's "tunnel" so you could enter it, which is the purpose of beign able to track it (get data about it), so that your fighter's subspace drive can put you into the same tunnel rather than your own - think radio frequencies. At least, that's what I think. Anything else would create some plotholes.

If ships see each other in subspace naively, the Ancient's data would have been pointless.

[Mongoose]

If anything the last mission of fs1 where you catch up with the lucifer was not about entering the node at the right time, speed, position to persue with your wings of bombers and destroy it. That mission was specifically about entering the node with whatever time you had left and catch up with the lucifer inside the node and destroy it simple enough.

That was the real crux of it for me.  Those last few missions never mentioned anything at all about the necessity of synchronization; it was all about the raw time requirements.  The Bastion was left behind in The Great Hunt simply because it couldn't physically make it to the Sol node fast enough to pursue the Lucifer.

You don't need to have the right time speed or position, only your computer to synch up with the Lucifer's "tunnel" so you could enter it, which is the purpose of beign able to track it (get data about it), so that your fighter's subspace drive can put you into the same tunnel rather than your own - think radio frequencies. At least, that's what I think. Anything else would create some plotholes.

If ships see each other in subspace naively, the Ancient's data would have been pointless.

See, I always took the "tracking" term to be far more literal, i.e. having the ability to find out where a ship is now and where it's going to.  Even without the subspace synchronization issue, that would make the Ancient data invaluable.  It's no good knowing that the Lucifer could be destroyed in a subspace tunnel if one has no idea where it is at the present time, or what series of jumps it'll be using to get to Sol.  The Terran and Vasudan fleets were completely backed against the wall by the end of the campaign; they presumably didn't have the resources to institute any sort of meaningful blockade around the node (or nodes, as the case may be) to Earth.  There was also the devilish issue of the Lucifer's history of using unstable and/or completely unknown nodes to jump between systems.  Notice that it was only after the Ancient technology was discovered that Command learned that the Lucifer was heading to Sol via Sirus and Delta Serpentis, which gave them the opportunity they needed to put the Bastion in position to execute a last-ditch strike against it.