[iamzack]

I'm going to come right out and say I have to disagree with compulsory health care of any kind.  The poor can't afford health insurance, otherwise they would already have it, so that means everyone else ends up paying for the health care of the poor.  The poor end up getting free health care simply because they are poor, and everyone who isn't poor gets stuck with the bill.  And a compulsory health care system reduces competition in the marketplace since the providers have a captive market.  There is a reduced incentive to keep prices down because you are forced to buy health care from one of the companies.

I also disagree with a single-payer government-run health care plan.  There is no free-market incentive to keep prices down through competition, and unlike traditional insurance, you can't really opt of the plan and purchase medical care on your own terms, like you can with insurance today.  It also spreads the costs around, so the healthier users subsidize the unhealthy users, and unlike traditional market-governed insurance plans there will most likely be a mandate to be in the government plan, so people will be forced to remain in a plan that they don't like.

Obviously, you missed the part where we end up paying for healthcare for the poor ANYWAY and a LOT more than we'd pay for their health insurance. Poor people don't not get sick. They get sick or hurt and then they wait until it's so bad they can't ignore it anymore, and they go to the hospital emergency rooms and can't even begin to pay the outrageous bills.

As things are now, even people with health insurance can be totally bankrupted by one bad illness or accident.

Healthcare just isn't one of those things that goes well in a free market situation. It's not in the companies' best interests to accept people who are likely to get sick or who already are sick, and it's really not in their best interests to pay for the medical care the people they insure need. So you have insurance companies trying to weasel their way out of paying for healthcare at every turn, and sick people at their mercy.

[Colonol Dekker]

I have Bupa, but i don't use it.....

[Liberator]

And may I ask what keeps the prices down in the current system?  

Nothing and that's the REAL problem, it's not that there's a shortage or that it's poor quality health care.  If you are sick you get help.  The problem is a combination of unscrupulous, but legal business practices and totally uncontrolled payouts in malpractice suits.

Odds are that doctor you just paid $10k to save your life will see maybe $3000 by the time he/she pays they're malpractice insurance.

The problem you've got is that the people in favor of this approach to health care reform are babbling on about how broken the system is and how prevalent corruption and over/under-diagnosis is to meet some mythical cost quota.  They further pronounce an overwhelming majority of Americans are dissatisfied by they're health care.  Yet, in a recent study, something like 70 or 80% are at least satisfied with they're health care and the remaining percentage are typically uninsured due to unemployment or simply by choice.

I guess what it boils down to is that certain people in America want to use this issue to exert they're will over the populace en toto.  I mean if the Government is in charge of making Life and Death decisions concerning your health, that basically gives them the right to force you to do pretty much anything they want to "ensure your continued health" including exerting said control on what and when you eat, what kind of car/truck/motorcycle you are allowed to drive, ect.  This is the reason they were in such a hurry to get this passed(they dropped a 1000 page monster of a bill on House Republican's office doorstep at 3am when the vote was to be called on it later that morning.) before the August recess.

Lastly, you can't really trust PMSNBC or CNN or NBC/CBS/ABC/NPR news to report this accurately because they aren't objective about the purveyors of the plan.  I mean you have got news anchors reporting that people at the various town meetings that are holding they're Representative's to the fire are in fact recieveing they're marching orders from some Republican somewhere.  That they're being bussed in and being told where to go to talk to they're Representative. 

Hmm, let's think about this.  A meeting with a person ostensibly elected to represent your interested is being held in a town 200 miles from where you live, and you want to to talk to him about his position.  You have 2 choices really, sit at home or call your local election board to find out where the meeting is.  If there are enough people who want to go, it makes more sense to rent a bus than drive 40 cars that 200 miles and as far as taking marching orders from some Republican somewhere...since when is it taking marching orders to stand up and be counted for what you believe or don't believe in? 

Community Organizers(and that's what this Administration is) shouldn't whine like a beat dog when the community organizes.

[The E]

I guess what it boils down to is that certain people in America want to use this issue to exert they're will over the populace en toto.  I mean if the Government is in charge of making Life and Death decisions concerning your health, that basically gives them the right to force you to do pretty much anything they want to "ensure your continued health" including exerting said control on what and when you eat, what kind of car/truck/motorcycle you are allowed to drive, ect.  This is the reason they were in such a hurry to get this passed(they dropped a 1000 page monster of a bill on House Republican's office doorstep at 3am when the vote was to be called on it later that morning.) before the August recess.

I know it doesn't work like that here (Germany), and that's good enough for me.
Not that I believe anything of what you just said. Quote chapter and verse (or more accurately, paragraphs) where in the laws that were proposed it says that, and I might believe you. Unlikely, seeing as I am so far to the left and liberal side of the american political spectrum you won't be able to find it, but hey. I'm a european, it's what we are.

Also, they're != their. It's a bit amazing that you managed to use the wrong form everywhere in that whole text.

[iamzack]

I guess what it boils down to is that certain people in America want to use this issue to exert they're will over the populace en toto.  I mean if the Government is in charge of making Life and Death decisions concerning your health, that basically gives them the right to force you to do pretty much anything they want to "ensure your continued health" including exerting said control on what and when you eat, what kind of car/truck/motorcycle you are allowed to drive, ect.  This is the reason they were in such a hurry to get this passed(they dropped a 1000 page monster of a bill on House Republican's office doorstep at 3am when the vote was to be called on it later that morning.) before the August recess.

You really believe that? I mean, seriously?

[Colonol Dekker]

Opinions are opinions........

[iamzack]

He believes that government health insurance means the government will make "life and death decisions concerning your health." That reform will give them "the right to force you to do pretty much anything they want to "ensure your continued health" including exerting said control on what and when you eat, what kind of car/truck/motorcycle you are allowed to drive, ect."

Just...

I ALREADY HAVE GOVERNMENT HEALTH INSURANCE. I have it. Like, now. Right now. Socialized, evil librul health insurance. From the government. Already.

It's not an opinion, it's just *wrong.*

[WeatherOp]

He believes that government health insurance means the government will make "life and death decisions concerning your health." That reform will give them "the right to force you to do pretty much anything they want to "ensure your continued health" including exerting said control on what and when you eat, what kind of car/truck/motorcycle you are allowed to drive, ect."

Just...

I ALREADY HAVE GOVERNMENT HEALTH INSURANCE. I have it. Like, now. Right now. Socialized, evil librul health insurance. From the government. Already.

It's not an opinion, it's just *wrong.*

But even you must admit taking that same care to the entire population is a completely different animal and opens up many other possibilities and changes.

[IronBeer]

I don't see a lot of people bringing up malpractice. Now, malpractice itself may not account for a large proportion of healthcare costs, but it engenders an increase in other parts of healthcare costs. Namely, malpractice insurance and extra testing that doctors order to cover their asses in case they get sued. Per capita, we spend about $7,200 annually and have an average life expectancy of 75 years. The UK spends less than half that per capita and has an average life expectancy of 77 years. Something isn't adding up, and I would offer that malpractice and associated fears are unnecessarily driving up the cost of healthcare in the US.

<Disengaging tl;dr mode before it can start...>

[chief1983]

"...the Senate version (at least) of the 'stimulus' bill includes provisions for extensive rationing of health care for senior citizens.  The author of this part of the bill, former senator and tax evader, Tom Daschle, (known by some as 'The Snake') was credited today by Bloomberg with the following statement.

Bloomberg:  'Daschle says health-care reform will not be pain free. Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them.'

If this does not sufficiently raise your ire, just remember that Senators and Congressmen have their own healthcare plan that is first dollar or very low co-pay which they are guaranteed the remainder of their lives and are not subject to this new law if it passes."

That came across my email recently.

Also, I simply am tired of continually relying more and more on the government and of accepting their 'safety measures'.  It seems the government simply finds more ways to make money so it can spend money on finding more ways to make money.  Take red light/speed cameras.  I'm sick of being watched like I'm already a criminal, and I'm sick of giving up my freedoms.

[WeatherOp]

"...the Senate version (at least) of the 'stimulus' bill includes provisions for extensive rationing of health care for senior citizens.  The author of this part of the bill, former senator and tax evader, Tom Daschle, (known by some as 'The Snake') was credited today by Bloomberg with the following statement.

Bloomberg:  'Daschle says health-care reform will not be pain free. Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them.'

If this does not sufficiently raise your ire, just remember that Senators and Congressmen have their own healthcare plan that is first dollar or very low co-pay which they are guaranteed the remainder of their lives and are not subject to this new law if it passes."

That came across my email recently.

Also, I simply am tired of continually relying more and more on the government and of accepting their 'safety measures'.  It seems the government simply finds more ways to make money so it can spend money on finding more ways to make money.  Take red light/speed cameras.  I'm sick of being watched like I'm already a criminal, and I'm sick of giving up my freedoms.

I tend to think if a bill like that passes, most of the ones who voted it in and likely our president could kiss their seats goodbye, and I don't think they are that stupid. My main concern over the healthcare bill is just more money being spent. You would think that after all the money Bush and Obama threw into stimulus packages we could get a break before we tally up more debt. Doesn't look likely.

[iamzack]

71% of Americans in favour of healthcare reform doesn't make your prediction likely...

I think it's about time we started spending money in places where we are actually helping people, though.

[Mongoose]

What really concerns me about this proposal, other than my inbuilt aversion to the government getting its hands deeper in even more pies (and before anyone drags that out, yes, I have been unhappy with many occurrences of the same over the past several years), is just where the funding is going to be coming from.  I can't help but be reminded of the trip our family took to Niagara Falls last summer.  We decided to go out to breakfast at a Perkins on the Canadian side (for anyone not in the know, Perkins is a relatively-inexpensive restaurant chain which specializes in breakfast food), and with all of the national and provincial taxes, for a family of six, our bill came out to over $100.  For a meal that probably would have cost $45 in the US.  At a time when the US and Canadian dollars were exchanging just about equally.  I don't know for a fact which (if any) of those taxes were as a result of Canada's healthcare system, but I do know that, if any plans for such a system involve me spending $6 for a glass of apple juice at breakfast, you can count me out.  I'd rather pay out healthcare costs all at once than get nickel-and-dimed to death on a daily basis.

That aside, I do agree that there is a serious problem with healthcare in this country.  There's something blatantly wrong when tens of millions of Americans can't even afford basic coverage, and there's something wrong when overly-exorbitant costs and unnecessary executive bureaucracy prevent people from getting the care they need.  (This rather heartrending blog details some of the ridiculous hoops that one set of parents has to jump through to care for their epileptic daughter.)  I don't know what the best solution to the current situation is, whether it's the current plan before Congress or some alternative way of cutting down the current pricing scheme (I'm kind of against the single-payer idea on principle), but something does need to be done, and now.  At the same time, I don't want whatever is done to result in major tax hikes or shoving the country further into ridiculous debt.

[Scotty]

"in favour of healthcare reform" != automatic approval of anything the president/congress approves on the matter.

For example, healthcare reform could be defined as completely abolishing the insurance system, except for one small company in upstate Michigan (pulled it out of a hat, nothing meant there).

[WeatherOp]

71% of Americans in favour of healthcare reform doesn't make your prediction likely...

I think it's about time we started spending money in places where we are actually helping people, though.

Looks like a lot more un-certainty in wanting healthcare reform from my opinion.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/121943/Benefits-Healthcare-Reform-Tough-Sell-Americans.aspx

[WeatherOp]

That aside, I do agree that there is a serious problem with healthcare in this country.  There's something blatantly wrong when tens of millions of Americans can't even afford basic coverage, and there's something wrong when overly-exorbitant costs and unnecessary executive bureaucracy prevent people from getting the care they need.  (This rather heartrending blog details some of the ridiculous hoops that one set of parents has to jump through to care for their epileptic daughter.)  I don't know what the best solution to the current situation is, whether it's the current plan before Congress or some alternative way of cutting down the current pricing scheme (I'm kind of against the single-payer idea on principle), but something does need to be done, and now.  At the same time, I don't want whatever is done to result in major tax hikes or shoving the country further into ridiculous debt.

As a conservative, I can agree with that. Had I not had health insurance a few weeks ago, I had a sinus infection and took a trip to the doctor. He looked at me for three minutes, after they took blood work and a chest x-ray, gave me a shot and billed me $450 for it. Good thing my insurance paid for most of it.

Medical bills are crazy high, insurance bills are crazy high and to be honest, IMHO I don't really know what can be done about it. I don't think however, the answer is as simple as running a bill through congress as fast as you can.

[iamzack]

That aside, I do agree that there is a serious problem with healthcare in this country.  There's something blatantly wrong when tens of millions of Americans can't even afford basic coverage, and there's something wrong when overly-exorbitant costs and unnecessary executive bureaucracy prevent people from getting the care they need.  (This rather heartrending blog details some of the ridiculous hoops that one set of parents has to jump through to care for their epileptic daughter.)  I don't know what the best solution to the current situation is, whether it's the current plan before Congress or some alternative way of cutting down the current pricing scheme (I'm kind of against the single-payer idea on principle), but something does need to be done, and now.  At the same time, I don't want whatever is done to result in major tax hikes or shoving the country further into ridiculous debt.

Major tax hikes are coming anyway, or at least they should be. We can't keep borrowing money like we have been for the last 8 years. If we're gonna spend billions on wars, we better have the tax rates to back it up.

I'd prefer if those high taxes would go towards free or low cost health care for all Americans, though. Maybe it's a liberal thing, but I see things like food, shelter, and health care as basic human rights, not luxuries, and certainly not things to be rationed when there is plenty to go around.

[High Max]

The USA should stop their petty wars and evil invasion games that those generals love so much and spend the money on improving the out-of-date infrastructure here too besides the health care. If some military men love shooting or bombing, they can play FS or hunt an animal.

[Mongoose]

...wut?

[SpardaSon21]

Don't feed the High Max!