Author Topic: Pondering about Freespace  (Read 7191 times)

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Offline Snail

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
What I didn't like about FS2 was that the Shivans went from being intergalactic menace to generic space bugs with an infinite number of disposable assets.

What I didn't like about FS1 was that the Shivans came across as the usual idiotic uberaliens defeated by Pluck and Teamwork and Zeal and Love.

In FS2 they finally managed to seem like an uncaring, ineffable cosmic force. They weren't a Zerg Swarm or anything, they were just...bigger scale. Do you care how many cells you abrade when you squash a bug?
Personal preference.

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
Battuta has a point, though. The Shivans were originally billed as an unstoppable foe in FS1 (cue Ref Bible), yet the teamwork of two vastly inferior species were not only able to stop them, but also drive them out of their world for 3.2 decades. In FS2, though, they just kept coming, despite both the Terrans and Vasudans having developed advanced technology and working even closer together than they did 32 years prior. The only problem with their return is that the Shivans didn't really do it in a very smart or elegant manner, instead seemingly taking on the brute force stance.

Maybe they got bored touring Capella again.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 04:34:02 am by Androgeos Exeunt »
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Offline Snail

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
Battuta has a point, though. The Shivans were originally billed as an unstoppable foe in FS1 (cue Ref Bible), yet the teamwork of two vastly inferior species were not only able to stop them, but also drive them out of their world for 3.2 decades. In FS2, though, they just kept coming, despite both the Terrans and Vasudans having developed advanced technology and working even closer together than they did 32 years prior. The only problem with their return is that the Shivans didn't really do it in a very smart or elegant, instead seemingly taking on the brute force stance.

Maybe they got bored touring Capella again.
FS2 replaced the thinking, scheming Shivans of FS1 with the army of giant space bugs. I agree it did avoid some of the stereotypical super species tropes, but I still liked the FS1 dudes better than FS2's.

 

Offline Scotty

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
What about FS1 makes you think they are scheming and thinking at all?  They show up, blast some ships, torch some planets, and get stopped.  Doesn't really take a genius or a clever scheme to do that.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
Yeah, there wasn't much about FS1 that screamed 'clever thinking adversary' to me.

 

Offline Rodo

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
I used to think the same, Shivans on FS1 are not smarter, they just seem smarter because they are harder to kill, that's all.

the only mission where it seems they are being smart is that mission with the Bastion where you are supposed to get some Shivan shield tecnology and you find yourself cought in a trap.
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Offline stuart133

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
I find it hard in some cases to think of the Shivans in FS1 and FS2 as the same group. The first ones attack us directly, and go for our home worlds, but in the second game they ignore us mostly, and just carry out their strange objectives.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
I think FS canon explains why, without any additional elements required.

But I think a lot of people will disagree very vehemently.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
Yeah, there wasn't much about FS1 that screamed 'clever thinking adversary' to me.
:rolleyes:

Evading blockades. Searching for Earth. Setting up ambushes. Attacking the shield convoy(s). Actively searching out and attacking the convoys who had learned their weakness from the Ancient data recorder.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 03:08:47 pm by Snail »

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
All of that happened during FS2 as well, though.

 

Offline stuart133

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
It did??
I can't think of any examples of the top of my head.
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
The Sathanas refused to be baited and evaded ambush by GTVA destroyers. The Shivans probed GTVA defenses and made tactical and strategic feints. They boarded a target of interest and captured prisoners. They certainly set up ambushes (The Great Hunt). They attacked convoys bearing critical targets at every opportunity (Battle of the Wilderness, Crisis in Capella) and constantly harassed Allied shipping. They disrupted training exercises and guarded their own nebular supply lines. They actively targeted the Bastion.

The relative lack of MacGuffins in the FS2 storyline is a nice touch, too.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
The Sathanas refused to be baited and evaded ambush by GTVA destroyers.
Uh. Really? All it did was head for the Gamma Draconis Node. I see no active evasion whatsoever there. More like stupidity on the GTVA's part for not deploying ships to the Node. In fact, it completely fell for a GTVA plot using the Maahes to allow Alpha 1 to scan its systems, despite it obviously being aware of his presence.

The Shivans probed GTVA defenses and made tactical and strategic feints.
Really? Could you give a few examples? I can't remember any.

They boarded a target of interest and captured prisoners.
Ah, that I'll give you. :nod:

They certainly set up ambushes (The Great Hunt).
That wasn't an ambush, that was the Ravana responding to the GTVA's attack on the Iblis and Asuras - Just as Command planned. It was a standard battle-scouting mission by the GTVA, attacking targets of opportunity to draw out the Ravana, just the same as Feint! Parry! Riposte and Speaking in Tongues, and worked perfectly.

They attacked convoys bearing critical targets at every opportunity (Battle of the Wilderness, Crisis in Capella) and constantly harassed Allied shipping.
They attacked anything that moved, more like. This is in contrast to FS1, where Shivans applied much higher tactical force to neutralize key targets - The GTSC Rosetta, the shield convoys, etc.

They disrupted training exercises and guarded their own nebular supply lines. They actively targeted the Bastion.
They hardly targeted the Bastion. They could have sent a Sathanas or even a Ravana, which would easily have smashed the light, mainly anti-bomber screen. Yet they didn't even send a single capship into the fray.

Additionally, the Sathanas only attacked the Colossus when prompted to, waiting until it had destroyed the SD Beast, several Shivan cruisers and a Shivan convoy before even thinking of attacking.


If the Shivans were thinking in FS2, they must've been idiots.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
You could make the same kind of points about most of FS1, because I played through that game kinda cocking an eyebrow and thinking 'this is it'?

The application of overwhelming force when one has overwhelming force is not a tactical error. Nor is the prioritization of objectives. Part of what made FS1 so transparent was that the Shivan objectives were banal: exterminate all life, Dalek it up, whatevs.

So I really imagine it's down to personal preference, thanks.

As I said earlier, everything the Shivans do in FS2 makes perfect sense in the FS canon, and it's quite intelligent.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
You could make the same kind of points about most of FS1, because I played through that game kinda cocking an eyebrow and thinking 'this is it'?
Not really. The Shivans in FS1 were more tactically sound. I can cite numerous examples.

The application of overwhelming force when one has overwhelming force is not a tactical error. Nor is the prioritization of objectives. Part of what made FS1 so transparent was that the Shivan objectives were banal: exterminate all life, Dalek it up, whatevs.
That is IMHO what made the Shivans in FS1 more frightening. The fact that they were actively trying to kill you, while utilizing similar tactics to ourselves, yet not making a single attempt at communication, was what made me like them. Whereas in FS2, they were off doing something else instead of actually trying to do anything. In a way I suppose that could be even more frightening, since they weren't overly bothered with the GTVA, but I didn't feel that way myself.

So I really imagine it's down to personal preference, thanks.
Hey, I'm not saying FS1 was any better or FS2 or anything. All I'm saying is that I liked the Shivans' portrayal in FS1 better than their portrayal in FS2.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
*sigh* Go on, then, cite your examples, because the Shivans in FS1 made no sense.

They had an invincible ship. They could've been over Sol in a day or two.

 

Offline stuart133

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
Well in FS1 the GTA and the PVE are the main targets, they are made to feel important enough.

In the second one the GTVA is just a mild annoyance, and the Shivans don't pay us that much attention. I mean when they lose Destroyers and Juggernauts, they don't seem to stop their advance for one second. This I think explains the potential lack of tactical nous in FS2.

BTW which particular part of the canon are you referring too? (sorry for being a n00b :))
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Offline Snail

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
*sigh* Go on, then, cite your examples, because the Shivans in FS1 made no sense.
In Pandora's Box, they set up an ambush to kill the player (but fail). Nonetheless...

In Hammer and the Anvil, they are led to believe that they have already destroyed all the shield prototypes, and believe that the convoy which is actually carrying the shield convoy is just another convoy headed for Earth. However, once they learn the contents of the Cargoes, they actively seek to destroy them.

In First Strike, the Shivans try to destroy the Taranis once they realise the possibility of the Terrans capturing it.

In Shell Game, the Shivans drop cargo containers as a trap, knowing the GTA will try to capture them. The cargo containers then self-destructed, killing a few Terrans in the process.

In the Battle of Deneb, they sent the Eva to lead a secondary fleet while the Lucifer circumvented the blockade at Deneb. (Next though, in Evangelist, they do something really stupid, just leaving the Eva out there to get exploded, I'll admit that was pretty idiotic on the Shivans' part).

In A Failure to Communicate, the Shivans attack the Beta Aquilae Communications Terminal. Whether this is just the Shivans attacking anything that is not Shivan, or if they were actually trying to disrupt communications is up to debate.

In Running the Gauntlet, the Shivans actually send in their flagship, the Lucifer, to a relative backwater away from the front, Altair IV, to neutralize the Rosetta and the convoy. The Lucifer was actively seeking to destroy any evidence of the Ancient data recorder to prevent the Terrans from learning their secret. This is IMO the best evidence for Shivans actually thinking in FS1.

They had an invincible ship. They could've been over Sol in a day or two.
No, actually. They couldn't because they didn't know where Sol was.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
They could've been over Sol in two or three days, then, because all you've got to do is fly your untargetable Scorpions through every jump node in sight.

The rest of what you posted up there sounds comparable to FS2, in both silly things and smart things.

 

Offline Snail

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
The rest of what you posted up there sounds comparable to FS2, in both silly things and smart things.
I guess.


It's personal preference really.


BUT FS1 IS STILL BETTER HAHAHAHA I WIN