Author Topic: Pondering about Freespace  (Read 7190 times)

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
i'm not saying t hat thats what actually happened, I'm saying that theres no real way for us to know what did happen. The only thing we know for sure, is what we DONT know. As the whole argument regarding scavenged ships, it could be said that The Shivans dumped all their old ships and took up the Ancients ships after they wiped em out. Who knows why they did it?

But the entire point of my argument was that we don't know anything about the shivans or why the do the things they do. I'm getting the feeling that maybe you guys might have missed it. The point is that, we know what we don't know, And we don't know a hell of a lot. Everything else is speculation, guesses and shots in the dark.

 

Offline stuart133

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
Well, yeah, we don't know very much, but going on what we do know we can see that the Shivans are very unlikely to have found their ships. But the other thing is this, you can't just say "We don't know much about them" to get out of an argument. If the evidence points at a certain thing then we can hypothesize that that is a possible theory.
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Offline Droid803

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
I'm pretty certain that the Shivans did not lift their ships from the Ancients at the very least.
After all, the GTVA was able to clearly distinguish that the Knossos was not of Shivan design/construction.
If they used the same designs, the GTVA wouldn't have been able to tell them apart (they would have simply though the Knossos was Shivan-built).
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Re: Pondering about Freespace
Yeah, but i'm saying that we can't assume that we know how they act. However unlikely something is, there isn't enough evidence to support the conclusion that the shivans build their own ships. And i'm not trying to get out of an argument, thats what i'm arguing. Like i said, i think you are missing the point.

The GTVA distinguished that the Knossos was not of Shivan design/construct based on the ships that they had either captured, or seen in combat. They then compared that, to the design of the Knossos portal. They used the information they had, to make what they felt was a valid assumption. You cannot say the same about where they get their ships from. And, odds are we will never know, since the only way TO know is to ask Volition.

 

Offline The E

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
Sorry to say this, jk, but I think you're quite alone with that theory.
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Re: Pondering about Freespace
I know i am, but the point which it supports is something that i feel very strongly about. The theory itself is probably not true, but the roots from which it sprang are neither bull**** or nonsense. We can't know, and we cannot assume. Sorry for being so stubborn!

 

Offline headdie

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
the consistency in ship design suggests to me that the ships are built/grown/created by the shivans.

We just don't know enough to say for sure how the shivans happen to have ships, I mean the FS1 fleet was a scouting fleet (loose canon from the back of the FS2 box supported by the size of the fleet met in FS2 compared to the Fleet in FS1) so I speculate they were performing a Recon-en-force type mission securing transit routes, obtaining intelligence on hostile forces and inflicting damage where possible.  Material objectives were not pursued because the fleet was operating from the 'core' of shivan space.  The FS2 fleet two also did not pursue a material agenda as they seem to again be engaged in Recon activity then bent on sending Capella super nova
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Offline stuart133

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
Well the reasons for the Capella incident is unknown, who knows why the Shivans did that, maybe it was to recharge their fleet. (Yeah that makes no sense but ...) Anyway it seems that the Shivans are the "Great destroyers" and therefore don't really have a "core sector". They descend on those who "trespass" in subspace.
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Offline Droid803

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
Yeah, but i'm saying that we can't assume that we know how they act. However unlikely something is, there isn't enough evidence to support the conclusion that the shivans build their own ships. And i'm not trying to get out of an argument, thats what i'm arguing. Like i said, i think you are missing the point.

The problem, I believe, is that you're not proving anything.
We all know that there is next to no information on the Shivans.
That however, does not entail that you can come up with whatever bat**** crazy theory that makes no sense. Well, actually, you could, but it doesn't entail that anyone would take it seriously.

Proof:
There's that Shivan theory about how they communicated by beaming the **** out of Terrans and Vasudans because they assumed that it was the method of communication and just wanted to be friemds. There's also the one where the Shivans blew up Capella for roasting nuts or something.
Neither contradicts stated canon, but expecting anyone to take either of those seriously is, in my opinion, very naive.

We don't know, but it is logical to assume something sensible. In fact, since we don't know anything, if we are to come up with a story, we must assume. It's stupid to assume something unsensible rather than something more logical if it is all possible.  We're not going for the solid truth, because it doesn't exist. We can only go for what makes the most sense.

Have fun getting people to take "The Shivans steal all their ships from the Ancients" seriously.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 08:59:36 pm by Droid803 »
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Re: Pondering about Freespace

Have fun getting people to take "The Shivans steal all their ships from the Ancients" seriously.

I'm not trying to get you to take that theory seriously at all... Once again you miss the point. What i'm arguing that its pretty much pointless to argue about which theory is more plausible... The bottom line is that we don't know so in my opinion, all theories are equally welcome no matter how ridiculous. Even a theory that's as nonsensical as scavenged ships.

I defended my "theory" because i felt that it was necessary to make you see that it was plausible, albeit not likely. You're right in saying that no ones going to take it seriously. They shouldn't, but at the same time, nothing makes it any more plausible than any of the other theories that float around on this forum.

And although you say its stupid to assume something unsensible rather than something more logical, i say that its Foolish to assume AT ALL. We should not assume anything. That is something that i feel very strongly about.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
For the purposes of storytelling it is necessary that there is a premise.
I would like you to attempt to come up with a post-capella story that assumes nothing about what would happen.
GOOD ****ING LUCK!
Because you're not :v:, everything you say would be an assumption, or based off one (of which would be what happens after at all!)
You have to assume that the GTVA didn't spontaneously commit suicide.
You'd have to assume that everyone didn't sprout eighteen penises that can shoot beams and develop the ability to survive in a vacuum making fightercraft and capital ships obsolete.

Justified, logical assumptions are required to have any story whatsoever.

Even your own theory is based off an assumption that Shivans take their ships from someone else.

You cannot have a story without assumptions, so your baseless rejection of them is foolish!

Ugh...
« Last Edit: October 19, 2009, 11:32:45 pm by Droid803 »
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Re: Pondering about Freespace
I'm afraid you're going to have to be a little clearer with your second paragraph because i can't make heads or tails of it.

From what i can gather of your post, you seem to claim that my rejection of assumptions is baseless. To that, i can say this. They assumed the earth was flat. They assumed that anyone outside of the christian religion were heretics and therefore must be purged. Not that long ago, some people assumed that certain races were inferior to the their own, and decided that they must be cleansed off the earth. So forgive me if i will not assume.

A story doesn't make any assumptions as far as i can tell. A story states what is supposed to be the entire truth. The story can say what it wants without assuming because the storyteller is God in their own universes.

And once again, you quote my theory, which i have repeatedly stated was only meant to be an example. You are right, my theory IS based off an assumption but so is every other theory out there. These assumptions don't make any of these theories any more or less true. In the realm of science, the chances of any of these theories being true are about the same, more or less. Something may seem more likely than something else, for example: The Earth is Round, But that is only until we find out something that tells us otherwise.

If its my own theory about scavenged ships that's really annoying you THAT much, then feel free to ignore it. I never said it. It wasn't that important to begin with.


But i think we've lost the original point of the argument. The only reason i mentioned it, is to respond to Tantalus's statement that the ships were mass produced. He stated that Ravanas were being mass produced, so i wanted to make it clear that we do not know how the shivans acquired their ships, whether it was created, found, grown, etc.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 12:56:49 am by jkalltheway »

 

Offline stuart133

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
I get your point about not knowing the truth but that does not really matter. And predictably you have dragged out the old argument of "We used to believe that the world is flat". That isn't really a counter argument, more a comment on how science works.
Allow me to explain: We form theories on things, based from evidence. There are many, often conflicting, theories about the Shivans as their isn't that much evidence, and there are no real facts.  Now, if we got some canon facts about the Shivans we could make a new theory, but until that time we must work with what we have. You cannot just say "well you can't make any assumptions". Real scientists make assumptions all the time, about things like gravity and matter, but that does not cause other scientists to jump up and down in rage, saying "NO ASSUMPTIONS!!" Until we know absolute fact (Which is technically impossible IRL) we MUST make assumptions.
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Offline Snail

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
jkalltheway, the only thing you're proving is that you're spewing complete and utter tosh.

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
Really? His fundamental point, that we don't know how the Shivans acquire their ships, seems very sound.

If it offends your very specific and personal Shivan aesthetic, Snail, that's a different matter.

 
Re: Pondering about Freespace
I understand how science works, but i also understand that they have to have evidence to support their theories. Currently, i just don't think there is enough evidence to support the idea that they have factories that create their ships. Its fine to have a theory, just expect your theory to be scrutinized and criticized. That's also part of the scientific process. Your theory just doesn't have enough support in the canon Freespace story for me to be able to use it as an answer to a question.

The original question was, : "The SSD Lucifer was only slightly larger than the FS2 Ravana, how come it has 8X hitpoints??"

and the answer that i questioned was "Where the Ravana is mass produced, theres only been one lucifer to date. Perhaps it is a cutting edge peice of shivan technology."

I have to question this answer, because i have a couple of issues with it. The first issue, is with the practical matter of it. Within the universe, there has been no intel regarding the shivans. Nothing is known about them, or how they function as a society or what are their purposes. To assume that they have factories, and means of production, you already assume that you know their culture and that they are similar to us in that way. They create ships, and send them off to war to destroy us.

My second issue with this is the problem it creates with the Shivans as a plot device. The shivans which are completely outside of our understanding, are now reduced to this enemy that we can see, and fight. You are free to disagree with me on this point, But i feel that the Shivans have to remain a shadow. The Shivans were supposed to be a faceless enemy, which is what makes them so terrifying! We fear, that which we do not understand.

Feel free to disagree, because we all have that right. But for the sake of this thread, i think i will have to bow out of it. I feel like we have gotten too far away from the original point of it, which is to answer Marcov's questions. Consider this a cop out if you must. Feel free to shoot me a message to continue this debate with me. But in this thread, i think i'm out.

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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
I agree with everything you said, jkalltheway.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
and the answer that i questioned was "Where the Ravana is mass produced, theres only been one lucifer to date. Perhaps it is a cutting edge peice of shivan technology."

My second issue with this is the problem it creates with the Shivans as a plot device. The shivans which are completely outside of our understanding, are now reduced to this enemy that we can see, and fight. You are free to disagree with me on this point, But i feel that the Shivans have to remain a shadow. The Shivans were supposed to be a faceless enemy, which is what makes them so terrifying! We fear, that which we do not understand.

But this does not give them a face. Nor does it hamper their use as a plot device. I hate to interrupt your War on Straw, here, but you're asserting something that does not logically follow.


Further, the Shivans are not completely outside our understanding. They can be seen, watched, fought, defeated. Did you somehow miss that you spent the whole of both games doing basically that? Their technology has been adapted to serve the purposes of their enemies and even improved upon. Their langauge has been deciphered. The cloak of invisibilty came off long ago. They remain mysterious, but only because we do not know the why or the who of them. The hows and the whens and the whats, however, we've long since learned.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
6. The NTF Iceni is simply an overkill ship. It's just a slightly larger corvette, but a nightmare for a corvette - it possesses nearly the armament of a destroyer. Most of all, it can run at 35 kph - the speed of a slow bomber. Where did Bosch get all this technology?

Personally I don't think the Iceni has any special new technology. What I feel is more likely is a matter of economics. The GTVA probably could build something like the Iceni but for the same price they could build a new Hecate. So they built new Hecates instead.

Bosch on the other hand specifically needed the something like the Iceni for his plans so he had it built even though those who didn't understand his plan probably thought it was stupid to build something like that instead of another much needed destroyer.
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Offline Droid803

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
A story doesn't make any assumptions as far as i can tell. A story states what is supposed to be the entire truth. The story can say what it wants without assuming because the storyteller is God in their own universes.

And once again, you quote my theory, which i have repeatedly stated was only meant to be an example. You are right, my theory IS based off an assumption but so is every other theory out there. These assumptions don't make any of these theories any more or less true. In the realm of science, the chances of any of these theories being true are about the same, more or less. Something may seem more likely than something else, for example: The Earth is Round, But that is only until we find out something that tells us otherwise.

Good to see that we are actually in agreement.

The thing is, if you create the universe, then you are the God of that universe. A campaign writer didn't create FreeSpace, so what they say about it isn't necessarily true. Since the said campaign is based off an existing story (or, in other cases, off of reality), you have to make a few assumptions, formulate a theory, to create a premise. It says nothing about canon or reality, but for the purposes of your story it is true.

Similarily, you could write a campaign in which you assume that SD Ravanas are mass produced and that SD Lucifers aren't because they are more expensive. It wouldn't necessarily be true for ALL campaigns, but for the purposes of your story (say, to shut down a Shivan Production Facility), it isn't wrong to assume that at all. In fact, assuming that the Shivans steal their ships are fine for this purpose as well.

Of course, neither of these assumptions would apply to FS canon. They would only apply to your storyline.


The original question was, : "The SSD Lucifer was only slightly larger than the FS2 Ravana, how come it has 8X hitpoints??"

and the answer that i questioned was "Where the Ravana is mass produced, theres only been one lucifer to date. Perhaps it is a cutting edge peice of shivan technology."

I believe whoever posted that simply offered a possibility and not the absolute truth.

I may have mistaken this thread with the other that was asking something about theory for designing a campaign, hence why I was saying that you can make any assumption about the Shivans for your story if you want. (Though it would not apply to canon/reality). So I was saying that if they wanted, they could take this assumption and use it as a premise for their campaign if they wanted to.

If they just want closure on the plot holes in FreeSpace, then my apologies for overly complicating the subject.
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