Author Topic: Pondering about Freespace  (Read 7155 times)

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Offline Marcov

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Pondering about Freespace
So far, I've come up with puzzling questions in my mind regarding Freespace realistics and statistics, and why or how did certain things happen. Some of these:

1. The SSD Lucifer was only slightly larger than the FS2 Ravana, how come it has 8X hitpoints??
2. The Rakshasa is obviously longer and larger than a Cain, and how come it's fragile?
3. Why didn't the GTVA give a valid classification for the Colossus?
4. Why did the Shivans detonate the Capella star, probably resulting in the destruction of their Sath fleet?
5. How was the Colossus built in a span of 20 years? Given this data, an Orion destroyer probably requires 3 years to construct. Where did the Terrans get the technology to build alot ofOrions?
6. The NTF Iceni is simply an overkill ship. It's just a slightly larger corvette, but a nightmare for a corvette - it possesses nearly the armament of a destroyer. Most of all, it can run at 35 kph - the speed of a slow bomber. Where did Bosch get all this technology?
7. Why aren't there any beams mounted on the Arcadia?
8. According to Freespace Wiki veterans, the Orion simply outwits the Hecate. How can this be? And why should the GTVA build a giant for an anti-fighter ship, when the Aelous is already a monster to fighters?
9. Why do Freespace fighters run only to the speed of a Sports Car?
10. Afterburners? If you afterburner your fighter, then it should remain that speed, since there is sparse if not no friction in space.
11. In the Fall of Vasuda Prime cutscene, it shows the Lucifer shooting a blue beam from its side. Why the heck isn't this beam in-game?
12. If they could use an invincible shielding for the Lucifer, then why can't they apply it to a Sathanas?
13. Why do they put extremely large radar dishes, probably 100 feet in diameter, to capitals? Do they need a massive range of detecting?
14. Why didn't Volition give a name for Command? Or maybe, if you're a Vasudan, Command becomes a Vasudan. If you're under the Aquitaine, then Command should be Petrarch..
15. What's the use of the Shivan Comm Node (that machine with rotating blades)?
16. Heavy missiles like the Cyclops or the Helios are even slower than a Sports car, while modern-day missiles travel sound-fast. Why?
17. Why did Volition give the Lucifer SReds in FS2?
18. Why does the Flux Cannon graphic look some how ugly (it takes time to hit its target, and doesn't have a beam sound), while its animation in the cutscene looks extremely cool?
19. What did Bosch do after he escapes in an Azrael? Was he just killed by Shivans?  :lol:
20. Why can't Shivans speak to the GTVA?

Feel free to ask any further questions here.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 09:14:43 am by Marcov »
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Offline Narwhal

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
1. The Ravanna may have a higher ARMOR/SYSTEM ratio. The Lucifer might be better designed. To give a RL example, a French WWII Char 2C is much heavier (70 tons) than a Somua S-35 (20 tons), but has MUCH less armor. Why ? The Char 2C is an horrible WWI design.

2. See 1.

3. Probably it did, but maybe since it was the only one in its category, everyone said "the Colossus".

4. Who knows

5. It is possible that most of Terran industrial capacity was on Sol. The 20 years can also include the prototypes, test period, ...

6. Well, maybe it was another prototype GTA or GTI design, unique, that he stole during the rebellion.

7. They are supposed to be away from the front. Maybe given the cost of beams and the number of FS1 ship to refit, Acadia modernising was seen as low priority.

8. Industrial ****-ups. It happens, a lot. Why did the German carried on producing Tiger when the Panther was so much superior on the front (not theorically, though, but on the front it was clearly seen as much more practical).

9. Because the schlebonium inside it works that way. (That's the way I rationalised).

10. See 9.

11. Always forget the cutscenes, they were made by another firm.

12. Too big. Maybe the cost of a shield growth exponiantially compared to the side of what carries it. Good enough for a fighter, but not anything bigger. They had one on ONE ship, but then decided to stop the cost.

13. Well... in space I would say yes.

14. Well, I don't see the problem with that.

15. Mystery.

16. See 9.

17. No Lucifer anyway, so they did not bother.

18. See 11

19. Mystery.

20. They don't want to. Do you speak to your flu ?
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 09:51:29 am by Narwhal »

 

Offline The E

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
Quote
1. The SSD Lucifer was only slightly larger than the FS2 Ravana, how come it has 8X hitpoints??

Because the Lucy has shields, is built as a Destroyer of Worlds, and designed to survive long enough to do its job. The Ravana, on the other hand, is just a vessel that carries around a coule fighter wings and massive Beam Cannons. It's designed to jump in, shoot the crap out of a target, and vanish again.

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2. The Rakshasa is obviously longer and larger than a Cain, and how come it's fragile?

Look at both ships closely. The Cain is a lot more solid than the Rak, the Rak looks like being barely armored at all.

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3. Why didn't the GTVA give a valid classification for the Colossus?

It did. It's the GTVA Colossus. As a one-off ship, they haven't yet gotten around to invent a new description for it (Although calling it a Dreadnought would be appropriate).

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4. Why did the Shivans detonate the Capella star, probably resulting in the destruction of their Sath fleet?

No canon answer exist. But it can be assumed that only a few Saths got toasted in there, as most of them jump out before the sun goes boom.

Quote
5. How was the Colossus built in a span of 20 years? Given this data, an Orion destroyer probably requires 3 years to construct. Where did the Terrans get the technology to build alot of Orions?

The Colossus project was more an effort to revitalize the GTVA economy. And it took 20 years to build the technology to build the technology to build the ships. And if you look at the new Terran capships, you see design elements of the Colly in nearly all of them.

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6. The NTF Iceni is simply an overkill ship. It's just a slightly larger corvette, but a nightmare for a corvette - it possesses nearly the armament of a destroyer. Most of all, it can run at 35 kph - the speed of a slow bomber. Where did Bosch get all this technology?

That's what it is designed to be. By Bosch, no less. It's built to break up or through Node blockades, cause a lot of damage in a short time, and jump out again. Sort of like the Ravana.

Quote
7. Why aren't there any beams mounted on the Arcadia?

There are a few AAA beams that are quite scary. But it doesn't have anticap weapons because it relies on other vessels to protect it.

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8. According to Freespace Wiki veterans, the Orion simply outwits the Hecate. How can this be? And why should the GTVA build a giant for an anti-fighter ship, when the Aelous is already a monster to fighters?

The Orion and the Hecate have different areas of expertise. The Orion is better at capital ship combat because of the better placement of her main batteries. The Hecate, on the other hand, is more like a Carrier, it carries a lot of fighters and a bit of anticap firepower, but it generally relies on Bombers to do the heavy killing.

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9. Why do Freespace fighters run only to the speed of a Sports Car?

Because it's FreeSpace. That's what it was designed to be.

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10. Afterburners? If you afterburner your fighter, then it should remain that speed, since there is sparse if not no friction in space.

Because Freespace does not follow the newtonian rules of inertia. It's arcadey that way.

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11. In the Fall of Vasuda Prime cutscene, it shows the Lucifer shooting a blue beam from its side. Why the heck isn't this beam in-game?

Because that's its Bombardment beam. Remember that, in FS1, it didn't use the side weapons. Also remember that the Vasuda toasting cutscene is non-canon.

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12. If they could use an invincible shielding for the Lucifer, then why can't they apply it to a Sathanas?

Ask the Shivans. But I would imagine that they determined that the Sath doesn't actually need shields, as its hull is quite massive.

Quote
13. Why do they put extremely large radar dishes, probably 100 feet in diameter, to capitals? Do they need a massive range of detecting?

Yes. Plus, they look cool.

Quote
14. Why didn't Volition give a name for Command? Or maybe, if you're a Vasudan, Command becomes a Vasudan. If you're under the Aquitaine, then Command should be Petrarch..

Command is more like an Air Traffic Controller on an aircraft Carrier. He doesn't actually give orders, but relays them to the pilots from the real commander (In this case, Petrarch)

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15. What's the use of the Shivan Comm Node (that machine with rotating blades)?

Ask the Shivans.

Quote
16. Heavy missiles like the Cyclops or the Helios are even slower than a Sports car, while modern-day missiles travel sound-fast. Why?

Game balance. For the same reason that FS2 missiles do not travel very far. Ever tried to intercept a fast travelling missile?

Quote
17. Why did Volition give the Lucifer SReds in FS2?

Ask Volition.

Quote
18. Why does the Flux Cannon graphic look some how ugly (it takes time to hit its target, and doesn't have a beam sound), while its animation in the cutscene looks extremely cool?

Blame the Technology. There were no beam weapons in FS1 (The flux cannon was a hacked invisible missile with an extremely long trail, not a beam).

Quote
19. What did Bosch do after he escapes in an Azrael? Was he just killed by Shivans?  :lol:

Ask Bosch.

Quote
20. Why can't Shivans speak to the GTVA?

The first real dialogue with the Shivans was initiated by Bosch with his ETAK. Ask him how it went.

Note that several of the answers you are looking for are holes that Volition probably wanted to fill in FS3, but since that didn't happen, us fans are free to come up with the answers.
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Re: Pondering about Freespace
Answer to most your questions:
"It's a game, it's not supposed to make sense it's supposed to be fun and cool"

 

Offline headdie

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Re: Pondering about Freespace

20. Why can't Shivans speak to the GTVA?

Feel free to ask any further questions here.

there are a few canon references to the fact that Shivans use a communication method which does not translate into any human senses, and that ETAK was a means of converting GTVA communications into something the Shivans can understand as communication
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
1. Better design; better materials, denser compartmentation, more redundancy. When you start throwing around stuff like "materials cost, time to build, and ease of maintaince are no object" around, you can do really impressive stuff. Just don't expect it to be practical. The Shivans thought they beat all those concerns with the sheathe shielding system, so they'd never need to replace the Lucifer or for that matter conduct major repairs on it. Oops.
2. It's not, relatively speaking, it has significantly more hitpoints. It's just a big target with easily-targeted turrets, having crossed a threshold of size and shape at which strafing it becomes easier, and thus gives the impression of fragility with the relative ease it can be destroyed.
3. It's the Colossus. That is it's designation. What more do you want?
4. Damfino. Or anyone else for that matter.
5. Feature creep. No, seriously, feature creep. Do you have any idea how many generations of electronics would go by in 20 years? They had to redesign the fighter handling facilities at least once, probably more than once, same for ordnance and the magazine. Unless they did the sane thing and froze the design it could have stayed in development hell forever while they kept tearing bits of it out. Also, the secrecy of the construction effort would have undoubtedly slowed it down.
6. See number one. Also, 25m/s.
7. Stupidity and/or the belief in the presence of warship guards and its own fighter wings.
8. Error. Fighters were judged the weapon of decision after The Great War, the development of the beam cannon notwithstanding. The Hecate was designed to defend itself against what was believed to be the controlling threat to the detriment of its other capabilites. This proved a mistake.
9. Most people assume it's relative to a fixed object.
10. Hush you.
11. There is no such cutscene in the original game, only a CB ani. Not canonical really.
12. Expensive. And unnecessary, really, considering the sheer ability the Sathanas already has to absorb damage.
13. Yeah. This is space, remember? It's kinda big.
14. So you could hate him more, he's like the Pointy-Haired Boss. Project what you like on him.
15. Dunno. Nobody does.
16. I said hush! :P
17. :v: is not perfect either.
18. It's an old game, y'know? Also, the FS2 opening cutscene is more than a bit dubious, and the Fall of Vasuda cutscene is an addition.
19. Probably. I hear he tasted like chicken.
20. I doubt they can't. They just don't want to.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 08:46:00 pm by NGTM-1R »
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Offline Mongoose

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
18. It's an old game, y'know? Also, the FS opening cutscene is more than a bit dubious, and the Fall of Vasuda cutscene is an addition.
I think you mean the FS2 opening cutscene, since the Lucifer didn't do much more than jump in during FS1's. :p

And just to clarify on that Fall of Vasuda cutscene, it was created by a member of the community (namely, the very talented IceyJones) to fill in for a cutscene mentioned in the original :v: FreeSpace Reference Bible that never made it into the final game, presumably for time/budget reasons.  However, it is based on a few scenes from canon command briefing animations, including the Lucifer spewing out Scorpion fighters in orbit around Vasuda Prime and transports fleeing from the destruction of a Vasudan city by a massive blue beam.  I don't believe this beam was ever shown being directly fired in the briefing animations, so that part was artistic license on the part of Icey; I'd imagine he took its positioning from FS2's intro cutscene.

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
 :nervous: You saw nothing.
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Offline Tantalus53

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
1. Where the Ravana is mass produced, theres only been one lucifer to date. Perhaps it is a cutting edge peice of shivan technology.

2. If you notice something about Shivan Ships, the more beams they have, the weaker they tend to get against fighters. (accept for the cain, whitch is just weakly plated and expendable). Perhaps the point-and-attack cruiser is meant to dish it out but not take it.

3. To signify what it meant is my opinion, and tell the society that there was just one. The GTVA collossus was the first and last of its kind. Wheras you hear GTD So-and-so, you know it was just one of many destroyers of some unimportant class throught history.

4. Most of them seemed to jump out. Theres no fact on why they did it. Think of something, make a campain about it  :D

5. Remember, Orions have been around for AGES. Perhaps the original build time was longer. But as technology progresses as it allways does, we find ways to get the same product in less time. Hence its possible for ships like the Collossus or Hades to get built in shorter times (in retrospect with Orions of old) pending on when the construction started.

6. Remember, Bosch was an X-GTI Flunkey. He has acess to alot of technology. Perhaps advanced miniturisation to be able to run that many beams off a single ship like the Iceni.

7. Arcadias were originally just trade/research/civilian installations.

8. Orion was becoming obsolete, and it didnt have much fighter capacity, as well as AAA defence. smaller vessels were getting more and more deadly, why wouldnt a design to make a warship less susceptable to a bomber raid Not fair well with Terran command? The Orion outgunns the Hecate, yes. But the Hecate has more uses im afraid.

9. Having had dealt with a bunch of physics teachers, perhaps the speed is relative. Plus, it would overwhelm most people to be traveling at how-much hundred thousand Meters per second.

10. Afterburners are for acceleration, im guessing. Get your fighter from Zero to maz in less time, and push it to structural limits.

11. A Lucy Bombardment beam was released some time ago.

12. The Sathanas didnt really need it. And im still thinking the Sathanas wasnt really meant for combat.. Its got way too many blind spots on it where any old ship can bombard it. Try Blue planet.

13. Update situation reports, give early warnings, ect. ect. We dont need to send recon flights /everywhere/

14. I see where your coming from, but, im thinking that for the aquatine, your command is coming from 3rd Fleet HQ and thats a comms officer responsible for opps on missions for that particular destroyer.

15. Send comunicacions? It must have been giving off some... quantum waves or something, and thats how ETAC goes about them speaking, so it must be like modern day comunication satelites, just on a large scale.

16. Once again, the speed may be relative.

17. Im guessing they didnt really care.

18. In the original Freespace: The great war, there were no beam cannons whatsoever. As in the engine didnt have them. Thus, the Lucifer used a 'Shivan Super Laser' witch is that little.. orangey-yellow thing we've all come to dispise for toasting the Galatea. But, Droid did a good thing with that Super Laser in Tides of Darkness and turned it into a sexy beast. Go play.

19. Cant really say.. I have my own theories.

20. I dont think its that they cant. I think they wont. They dont care enough. We were just something insegnificant that they knew they had to clean off their boots sooner or later.

 
Re: Pondering about Freespace
As far as we know the Shivans could have known about the Human race and the Vassudans way before we took to the stars for all we know.
The Shivans could be a very ancient race, and if that is the case then they definatetely would not like us based on our history.
Making an assumption like that they could had theorised that we Humans together with the Vasudans could prove to be a threat to them so they design the Lucifer as a spearhead to destroy the core planets of our race. Making a premptive strike always a strategical advantage hence the destruction that brought to Earth and Vasudan Prime by the Lucifer. Also, when you think about large ships you have to think of the signatures. What i mean?
The large the object the easier it get to lock and have a succesful hit on it. Also the slender frame ships with a less shield signature the longer it takes to track and lock. Thats the RL rule, and here in FS2 it applies abit also.

My 2cents.

 

Offline stuart133

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
Not going to answer all the questions, just the ones where I disagree/want to add something

3. It is probably named like this to show that it represents the alliance. It does this in 2 ways: It is the flagship of the GTVA and it was the first truly Terran/Vasudan joint project. (I think someone says that in game)
4. They are not destroyed. I think there is something about quantum waves and subspace distortion. But really it could just be to destroy a GTVA star thus throwing it into chaos, it is only the node separation which saves them. Also they jump out at the end, so I'm pretty sure the Saths escape.
9. & 10. :v: say so
15. That sector seems to be an important one. There are multiple Saths passing through it into a Nebula. Communications would be vital to stop the whole situation turning into a huge mess.
19. So much speculation has been made about this topic, until FS3 (never) we will never know for sure.
20. The shivans use quantum waves to communicate. The humans cannot until ETAK. Also the shivans are the great destroyers, they don't want to speak to us. So the sum up, we can't speak to them, they don't want to speak to us.
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Offline Androgeos Exeunt

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
4. Why did the Shivans detonate the Capella star, probably resulting in the destruction of their Sath fleet?

All but at least three of them warped out. Given that the Shivans have over eighty Sathanas juggernauts, the loss of three plus one is but a dent.

6. The NTF Iceni is simply an overkill ship. It's just a slightly larger corvette, but a nightmare for a corvette - it possesses nearly the armament of a destroyer. Most of all, it can run at 35 kph - the speed of a slow bomber. Where did Bosch get all this technology?

He didn't. It was built under his orders.

7. Why aren't there any beams mounted on the Arcadia?

The GTVA probably saw little purpose in doing so, since they could send a small number of fighters to guard an Arcadia just as well or better (cue The Sixth Wonder and Dunkerque). Keep in mind that the Arcadia is half-civilian and half-military, and probably lacks a powerplant capable of supporting beam weapons for defence.

8. According to Freespace Wiki veterans, the Orion simply outwits the Hecate. How can this be? And why should the GTVA build a giant for an anti-fighter ship, when the Aelous is already a monster to fighters?

In essence, the Orion is a cuboid; much easier to protect than the Hecate's fairly confusing design, especially in the nebula.
The Aeolus was expensive to produce, lacked anti-warship weaponry (I mean, two SGreens doesn't quite cut it), and lacks a fighterbay.

14. Why didn't Volition give a name for Command? Or maybe, if you're a Vasudan, Command becomes a Vasudan. If you're under the Aquitaine, then Command should be Petrarch..

I believe he was given the callsign "Command" because it was easy to remember, and because he's probably only a representative of GTVA High Command. Why bother recalling his name when you can instead get his attention simply by calling him "Command", while at the same time sending an indirect query to the real Command themselves? Note that FS2 provides several examples of pilots who attempt to query GTVA High Command in-mission. To this effect, getting someone who's trained to keep saying, "You'll be informed on a need-to-know basis." is a much more convenient tactic of keeping such questions in check. Besides, you can't seriously expect GTVA Command to answer the beck and call of every single pilot when they have other things to worry about, right? ;)

17. Why did Volition give the Lucifer SReds in FS2?

It's been speculated that this was an oversight. The reality is that the LRed has damage values closer to the Shivan Super Laser than any other Shivan beam, including the BFRed.

18. Why does the Flux Cannon graphic look some how ugly (it takes time to hit its target, and doesn't have a beam sound), while its animation in the cutscene looks extremely cool?

The original Shivan Super Laser is probably just a table lift from FS1, and it is likely that the FreeSpace engine did not support the use of in-game beam cannons back in 1998. It is also speculated that all cutscenes in FS2 were made by a third party under :v:'s orders.
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Re: Pondering about Freespace
1. Where the Ravana is mass produced, theres only been one lucifer to date. Perhaps it is a cutting edge peice of shivan technology.



Well, its hard to say that the shivans ever produce anything. There has been no records of a shivan manufacturing facility. As far as we know, the Shivans just found these ships and use them for their own purposes. The lack of knowledge regarding the shivans is terrifying. Its a solid possibility that they simply found the ships they use, and never found more than one Lucifer.

 

Offline stuart133

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
Hmmm, that is unlikely. There is a high level of stylistic continuity between the Shivan ships which suggests that they were built, not found. The lack of Shivan shipyards is probably due to the fact that the GTVA never explore Shivan space, the system beyond the nebula is the furthest that they get. Another possibility is that the ships are "grown" not constructed. They could be large bio-engineered entities which could explain their strange construction style.
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Offline The E

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
Scary thought: Liliths and Cains are larval forms of Lucys....
Let there be light
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Let there be stars and let there be you
Let there be monsters and let there be pain
Let us begin to feel again
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Re: Pondering about Freespace
12. If they could use an invincible shielding for the Lucifer, then why can't they apply it to a Sathanas?
It was supposed to be invincible, and still got destroyed. The shivans themselves have beam weaponry, and if you believe them to be shield piercing for the lucifer as well (like they are for fighter shields ingame), you can easily assume the enemy has advanced beam weaponry on capital ships as well.
So shields don't help you anymore anyway, and you need ships to effectvely blast enemy cap ships out of the sky.
Because I think that's a really nice explanation I believe that beam weapons in general would have pierced through Lucis shields.

The Aeolus was expensive to produce, lacked anti-warship weaponry (I mean, two SGreens doesn't quite cut it), and lacks a fighterbay.
That the Aelous was expensive is iirc only fanon from inferno, and not canon. At least that was mentioned here some time ago.

 
Re: Pondering about Freespace
Hmmm, that is unlikely. There is a high level of stylistic continuity between the Shivan ships which suggests that they were built, not found. The lack of Shivan shipyards is probably due to the fact that the GTVA never explore Shivan space, the system beyond the nebula is the furthest that they get. Another possibility is that the ships are "grown" not constructed. They could be large bio-engineered entities which could explain their strange construction style.

Well consider this. Perhaps all their found ships were  from the races that they had previously destroyed hence the continuity. We know the ancients were destroyed by the ancients, but we never know what kind of ships they had. For all we know, the shivans could have wiped them out, then taken over ships left over by them.

But the most important factor here is that we truly have no idea what they shivans do. We don't know anything, and we cannot assume anything. I think that is partly what makes them so terrifying, is how little we know about them. Everything else is just speculation.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
Well consider this. Perhaps all their found ships were  from the races that they had previously destroyed hence the continuity. We know the ancients were destroyed by the ancients, but we never know what kind of ships they had. For all we know, the shivans could have wiped them out, then taken over ships left over by them.
The thing is, if the Ancients had been wielding ships more powerful than those of the Shivans, then the Shivans presumably wouldn't have been able to exterminate them (unless they had an extreme numerical advantage, of course).  And if the Shivan ships were as superior to the Ancients' as most of us would assume, then what use would the Shivans have for inferior technology?

 

Offline stuart133

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Re: Pondering about Freespace
I really cannot see the Shivans just finding ships to use. It really doesn't seem likely. I mean if they did scavenge ships why would they just take from one race? It would make more sense if there were several groups of ships, which looked the same, from different races. Also the Shivans are adapted to their ships. If they had found them this would not be so. Remember that all species will have different biology so different life support systems are needed, as well as different shapes of the corridors. There are several references to how easily the Shivans move through the corridors on their ships, while the humans find the layout very strange.
Organiser of HLP 10. (Well at least so I am told)

Stuart you're running this one now ain't ya? So get choosing. :p

 
Re: Pondering about Freespace
We are emulate the Shivan technology at the moment.
Lets not forget we had no shield technology or beam weapons.
The progress of the GTVA was based on studies of the Shivans and as long as they make the technology they will be a tech level higher than the GTVA until they the GTVA can emulate it.