[Commander Zane]

Because of course people would rather have an officially bugged game.

[The E]

No, because it's not our job. Providing a common set of high-poly models and hires maps is far easier than providing a set of gameplay alterations.

[TrashMan]

No, because it's not our job.

Ddin't know you were getting paid for the FSU
Damn, that be a good job. Where do I sign up?

[headdie]

To get things rolling here is a modified ships.tbl file to replace the original (note this is a .tbl not .tbm)

please download, use and comment.  any suggestions for improvements on the changes made or new changes to make shoot them to me.  

Please note that this is a little side project to provide a non SCP supported "fix" to table entry's and not to provide the player with a set of "ultimate" fighters so new changes will have to be justifiable.  I am also open to suggestions on the weapons table.

edit: Removed Link

edit:
Version 1.0 - Headdie - 30-12-2009

Nahema = switched speeds around so now 72max - 90ocl
Myrmidon = added 10 to each secondary bank cappacity and harpoon compatability
Artemis = changed bomber weight to Light and set ocl to 78 in keeping with average overclock speeds
Artemis D.H. = changed bomber weight to Light set speed to 70 to refect the fact is is supposedly superior and set ocl to 87 in keeping with average overclock speeds and the fact it shares engines with the aries
Bakha = set ocl speed to 78 as like Artemis it was set to 65 with no bonus
Medusa = changed bomber weight to medium to better match speed, hits and cappacity
Sekhmet = changed ocl speed to 70 so there is a meaningfull boost but still below par this is based on the fact that though same cappacity as Ursa it has slightly lighter armour and is newer

[Fury]

First of, you should be using tbm's and write in only what's changed. Otherwise there's no hope in keeping any sort of compatibility with existing tbl's and tbm's.

[General Battuta]

It doesn't matter. Changing the Artemis' overclock speed would change mission balance. Changing the Artemis DH's stats would change mission balance. Changing the Nahema's speed would do ungodly things assuming the AI overclocks.

You can feel free to make a mod of your own that adds small tweaks like this - just take the MediaVPs and alter them a bit more. Easy enough.

But even small changes to the vanilla product are dangerous.

You're really going to stick with the "it changes balance" like it will ruin everything? Like the D.H. even going 5 m/s faster and having 25 extra shield points is suddenly going to make it unstoppable? That makes it statistically better, but it's so subtle that you'll barely even notice. This is "dangerous?"

Sounds like ignorance to me.

I'm really disappointed that you're making this argument personal. I thought you were a serving adult?

Even minor balance changes can have a huge effect on missions - not just in the main campaign, but in mods that use the MediaVPs. The Procyon Insurgency, for example, has incredibly difficult and tightly balanced missions. Small changes have massive ripple effects.

We've seen this time and again in the AI code, where incredibly little adjustments have rendered missions more difficult.

Moreover, the argument isn't that these tiny changes will destroy all mission balances forever. It's that there's simply no major benefit to doing them compared to the cost, when you could make your own remix mod that accomplishes the same thing and that will not cause problems for all campaigns ever released that use the mediavps.

Honestly. If you think it's a big deal, why don't you stop insulting me and get to work?

[Macfie]

I would remove Harpoon compatibility from the Myrmidon, but that's just me.

And hence the reason we don't correct the table errors.  Everyone has their own opinion on whether or not something needs corrected.

[General Battuta]

Quite so.

I am still boggling at CommanderZane calling me ignorant. The whole point of this thread is to find these errors so we can correct them in BP. Obviously there's an interest in doing so.

[Mongoose]

And hence the reason we don't correct the table errors.  Everyone has their own opinion on whether or not something needs corrected.

Bingo.

And looking at things more generally, every single commercial game release ever has had some sort of bugs or quirks or mistakes associated with it, just by virtue of how game development works.  No developer manages to get everything working just how they wanted to, and there's always something that manages to slip through the cracks and confuses/frustrates/delights those who play the finished product.  Hell, sometimes these little quirks wind up becoming important aspects of gameplay; just to use one example, the concept of "trichording" in the Descent series was originally an unintended movement bug in the original game, but it's an utterly necessary skill if you want to have any chance of success in multiplayer.  We can argue on and on about whether the Myrmidon's weapons loadout or the Nahema's overclock were intended oddities by or just the result of a mistaken copy/paste, but the fact remains that they're part of the fabric of the game as a whole that we've all become accustomed to, and it's not on the FSU team to decide whether or not they deserve to remain.

[Commander Zane]

We've seen this time and again in the AI code, where incredibly little adjustments have rendered missions more difficult.

Those are two entirely different things. Last I checked ship Tables changed how they flew and A.I. Tables changed how they act and react.

And looking at things more generally, every single commercial game release ever has had some sort of bugs or quirks or mistakes associated with it, just by virtue of how game development works.

And guess what? Either the developers eventually fix them or the gaming community makes an unofficial patch for it.
The former cannot happen at all at this point and the latter people are simply going to push it aside.

[General Battuta]

No. AI tables and profiles change how they fly.

But here's a table example for you: let's say you've got a user made mission in what we'll call ZaneCampaign. It has a sequence in which a number of Nahemas fly at a vulnerable target that the player must reach first. This mission has been carefully balanced so that the Nahemas, which have good AI and are using smart burners and engine overclocking, will reach the target about 30s after the player, giving the player time to intercept bombs and destroy the bombers if they're good.

With the table changed? The Nahemas now fly faster on overclock, reaching the target significantly more quickly. The mission has just gone from balanced to exasperating.

These kinds of problems could be present in every user-made campaign out there. These campaigns were built and tested with the vanilla tables in mind. Altering them would destroy backwards compatibility.

This is why a remix mod makes far more sense.

[Commander Zane]

No. AI tables and profiles change how they fly.

Does it change their speed? Does it change their maneuverability? Does it change their endurance?
No. No. And no. Flying.

Does it however change how much they dodge a pursuing target and how often they adjust their aim? Yes and yes. Acting and reacting.

[General Battuta]

In fact it does change their speed (smart afterburners), their maneuverability (how often they evade, whether they can use off-axis thrust and strafing), and their endurance (energy use multipliers.) It changes how many weapons they can possibly fire.

Yes, yes, and yes.

And reread my last post. You're arguing with shadows. Not only that but you've taken the time to make the debate personal when it regards minor tabling glitches in a computer game. Get a sense of perspective, seriously.

[headdie]

ok lets try this again

http://www.mediafire.com/?zo2ynxdnotn

the list of changes is as before but it is now in the form of .tbm and in a mod structure as before download and discuss

edit:
sorry for typoes

[General Battuta]

Might want to make a new thread for it. You'll, of course, get fierce debate over who wants what exactly, which is why the MVPs haven't done this. But it is a good idea.

[MatthTheGeek]

I think that letting the MVPs keeping retail stats and having this kind of side project correcting supposed bugs is a good idea, because it lets people choose between full retail and slightly altered gameplay.

[Mongoose]

And looking at things more generally, every single commercial game release ever has had some sort of bugs or quirks or mistakes associated with it, just by virtue of how game development works.

And guess what? Either the developers eventually fix them or the gaming community makes an unofficial patch for it.

Or, as is far more likely, the people playing the game just live with them and incorporate them into their gameplay.  This is especially true for the myriad of games (like all console games before the current generation) for which neither option exists: HAL Laboratory may not have wanted wavedashing in Super Smash Bros. Melee, but there was nothing they could do about it after the game was released, and so it became incorporated into tournament play.  But even if certain quirks are technically able to be changed, there's not necessarily any compelling reason why they should be in any sort of widespread unofficial capacity.  We all know that the Myrmidon can't carry Harpoons, so we simply decide for ourselves whether or not that negates its other merits; likewise, the fact that the Myrmidon can inexplicably carry Helios bombs allows mission designers to do some fun things with it.  Those elements are part of the fabric of the game, and simply whitewashing over them just because certain people unilaterally label them as "bugs" ignores that fact.

[Commander Zane]

Full Retail is Retail.

Or, as is far more likely, the people playing the game just live with them and incorporate them into their gameplay.

And how can you incorporate the Artemis D.H.'s lack of in-game improvements while being advertised as being improved in its technical description into the game?
I want a good answer for this.

[General Battuta]

It simply doesn't matter. There are many things we can't 'incorporate' - the fact that the Shivans are supposed to have superior weapons but don't, the Mentu's beams, the Colossus' turret inventory.

The FreeSpace Upgrade Project will not, according to its stated policy, be changing any of this.

You are, of course, free to change the Artemis DH (as Derelict did) in your own mod. In vanilla, the DH will remain a neat reskin of the Artemis.

[headdie]

ok set up a separate thread for my little mod http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php?topic=67235.0