Author Topic: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?  (Read 19976 times)

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Offline chief1983

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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
why not allow a 1024x1024 texture for 2d shockwaves?
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Offline Spoon

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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
Am I the only one that thinks that 3D shockwaves looks way and waaaay better than 2D ones?
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Offline chief1983

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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
No, or else the mediavps wouldn't have both.
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
Agreed with Spoon too.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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Offline Liberator

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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
Like I said earlier and was promptly ignored, this has been done.

A true spherical explosion looks mahvelus!
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Offline General Battuta

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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
I would love to see such a creature. Do you have any idea how we can track it down?

 

Offline Nighteyes

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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
why not allow a 1024x1024 texture for 2d shockwaves?

1024x1024 effects arn't possible right now with decent framerates... I tried once and it REALLY killed my framerate... I have a geforce 9600GT so it pretty nice, and if it can't render it good then a lot of users won't be able to use this effect...
on a personal note, I love 3D shockwaves :P I don't like the spherical ones, 2D ones are also really nice when not viewed from up close... thats why I made 2D and 3D, so people can choose what they like the most :P

 

Offline Commander Zane

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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
Your 2D shockwave looks spherical though, and I thought it looked pretty good.

 

Offline S-99

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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
The star trek explosion idea sounded pretty cool. And the original fs1 shockwaves already resemble that in a 2d way. I'd go for 3d spherical fs1 like shockwave with a flash point and 3d normal shockwaves along with. :yes:

Also, this is just getting plain old annoying. It's too much like dab's 3d shockwaves. It's annoying because shockwaves like this are popping up a little too often. It has no depth, and when multitudes of these shockwaves come flying out of a dying capship in all directions, it just looks like crap where one 3d shockwave would look better instead. This reminds me of two vinyls stacks on top of each other.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2010, 04:51:12 am by S-99 »
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Offline Nighteyes

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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
well if you took the time to read the thread I was trying to fix that stacking problem... I fixed it, it looks really nice to me... I will release it with ED and then you can choose to use it or not, I don't care :P the idea was not to make it a spherical shockwave, just a nice, high rez looking shockwave...
also, right now its not possible to have 3D spherical shockwaves, so we might as well make what we have nicer right?

 

Offline General Battuta

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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
S-99 did not read the thread. Don't mind him.

 
Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
Am I the only one that thinks that 3D shockwaves looks way and waaaay better than 2D ones?
No, or else the mediavps wouldn't have both.

Well, I'd rather say we do have both because neither is a perfect approach. You can easily tell that by everytime somebody makes some progress on the flawed shockwave system (and here we talk about a HUGE progress IMHO) everybody is mainly debating 2D versus 3D waves.
I have the feeling everyone has a quite similar concept of how it should[ look (see Gregster2k's & DaBrains linked videos and - not to go uncredited - Nighteyes' work.

I say that one her would be perfect if not for 2 things: one is the orientation of the 3D waves the other one is the excessive use of shockwaves. Me personally thinks multiple shockwaves even on an imploding capital ship destroy the illusion of the brute power. There  just should be one single wave on the final im/explosion and if the players ship passes the horizon it should be accompanied by a "swoosh" - that's it!


now the trivial question: what is actually preventing the engine to selectably force the normal of the wave pointing towards the player or not? Wouldn't that render the 2D wave completely obsolete?

Having said that it's a pity we have to wait for ED coming out to use it!

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
now the trivial question: what is actually preventing the engine to selectably force the normal of the wave pointing towards the player or not? Wouldn't that render the 2D wave completely obsolete?

Multiplayer comes to mind first and foremost.

Secondly, that is essentially the exact same thing as a 2D shockwave; a planar projection of a spherical shockwave.

Only difference is that it uses a POF model file as a method of showing the shockwave texture, whereas 2D shockwave texture is rendered as a sprite on the screen, which always faces the viewpoint automatically.


The best solution would be a volumetrically expanding shockwave, which could be achieved by an expanding sphere model with distortion/glow shaders.

Even better, particle-based volumetric shockwave model where stuff in the way of the particles would stop them or reflect them... which would lead to "shadows" in the shockwave, and the surfaces of objects facing the shockwave briefly glowing as the hot gas particles impact it. The lifetime of the particles would define the radius of the shockwave.

The problem with THAT is the sheer amount of particles such a thing would require; it will never work smoothly unless particles become GPU-accelerated in FSOpen.
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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
Multiplayer comes to mind first and foremost.

Can you explain? Does Multiplayer only work with 2D?

Secondly, that is essentially the exact same thing as a 2D shockwave; a planar projection of a spherical shockwave.
Only difference is that it uses a POF model file as a method of showing the shockwave texture, whereas 2D shockwave texture is rendered as a sprite on the screen, which always faces the viewpoint automatically.

Which was exactly my point: A sphere, no matter what angle looked at from, will be projected as a circle. All references posted on discussion of the skockwaves show exactly this: an expanding circle. Using 3D waves with normal facing the player would look like expanding spheres while variable perspective would satisfy those who like disk-shaped waves (which btw. don't make much sense from a physical approach).
Also (aafik) using a .pof should give much more detailed results and blend better into the worls as sprites.

The best solution would be a volumetrically expanding shockwave, which could be achieved by an expanding sphere model with distortion/glow shaders.

Sorry for lacking the background here, is it possible or not to apply shadres to .pof models?

 

Offline The E

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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
Can you explain? Does Multiplayer only work with 2D?

No, the 3d Shockwave works there just as well, but the orientation for the wave is chosen by the server, and is the same (or should be the same) for all players.
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
Secondly, that is essentially the exact same thing as a 2D shockwave; a planar projection of a spherical shockwave.
Only difference is that it uses a POF model file as a method of showing the shockwave texture, whereas 2D shockwave texture is rendered as a sprite on the screen, which always faces the viewpoint automatically.

Which was exactly my point: A sphere, no matter what angle looked at from, will be projected as a circle. All references posted on discussion of the skockwaves show exactly this: an expanding circle. Using 3D waves with normal facing the player would look like expanding spheres while variable perspective would satisfy those who like disk-shaped waves (which btw. don't make much sense from a physical approach).

Yes.

Quote
Also (aafik) using a .pof should give much more detailed results and blend better into the worls as sprites.

No. The only reason why the "3D" shockwave looks sharper is it's mapping. It is using a quarter map sector tile as opposed to the full map used by the 2D, sprite shockwave. Because of this, the apparent resolution of the 3D shockwave can be the same as 2D shockwave, but with only 1/4 of memory usage (assuming both effects use similarly stored textures).

Or conversely, if the effects are the same resolution, the apparent resolution of the 3D shockwave can be doubled with same memory usage.

However, using a POF does NOT automatically guarantee any such thing as better blending to the world. In fact, quite the opposite is the case. If any hard edges are visible, they will not look natural at all. Even less if anti-aliasing is not used. Sprite is just an arbitrary plane in the space where the effect texture is drawn to; and a plane is technically a 3D object just as much as more complex model where the texture can be projected - like the 3D model.

The difference is, a plane only has two faces (two triangles) while a more complicated 3D model would have way more. And technically, if you use a model of a plane, the result would be the exact same as using an effect sprite. With the exception, of course, that it would probably use more resources than just using the effect as a sprite.


An interesting experiment would be to make a sprite shockwave that consists of four quarters expanding from the centre where their inner corners meet, and using the 3D shockwave's texture for it... By my estimation, the only problem would be to keep the individual quarters NOT facing the player but instead aligned with a common normal vector to form an univorm plane. This is necessary to match the edges of the textures. I'm relatively sure it can be done somehow, yet I would have no idea if the sprite system's drawing angles can be manipulated as such or would it indeed require a simple 3D model of a plane.

Which, as already stated, wouldn't work on multiplayer very well at all.

Personally I so far prefer the 2D shockwaves in MediaVP's as they are the closest high-res approximation of Volition shockwaves we have had yet.

Quote
The best solution would be a volumetrically expanding shockwave, which could be achieved by an expanding sphere model with distortion/glow shaders.

Sorry for lacking the background here, is it possible or not to apply shadres to .pof models?

Well, not as such. Parallax Object Files are used for many things but they don't support a full material system. This trickery should be done on code level or table level. The model should just be one simple primitive sphere mapped with a glow map, and the shaders specified in somewhere like shockwave.tbl would then take care of applying necessary effects to it to make it look like a shockwave. Heat distortion, motion blurring the expanding shockwave, convolution, bloom; these would work well to achieve a three-dimensional expanding shock front look. Particles could be spawned by the expanding sphere as well.

The thing is, I have no idea how to do this. I'm reasonably sure that someone will at some point do this, though.
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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
Thanks for explaining, E and Herra.

The model should just be one simple primitive sphere mapped with a glow map...

That sounds very interesting indeed....

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
Why does the wave orientation matter in multiplayer?  Someone might unfairly see the wave coming because it's visible from a slightly different angle and react to it differently?  That's really that big of a deal?
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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
As I understood the idea of having the normal of  a 3D shockwave facing the player would not work in multiplayer since the orientation of the wave is determined by the server - and thus seen differently by all players. If hte normal should allways face the player there would need to be one individual wave per player wich is impossible - or the orientation determined on the player's machine, or a  real spherical wave.

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: Why is the model of the 3D shockwave the way it is?
I don't think a client side generated shockwave is illegal, the server wouldn't necessarily have to pick the normal.  But it's not the same for all players no matter what for 3d shockwaves, and never has been.  2d shockwaves are the same for every player, and always have been, so I'm a little confused now.
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iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays