[Colonol Dekker]

This is about the eighteenth time we've been through this.
 
 

[Thaeris]

Judging by the fact a dozen SJ's were lost during the Supernova, I'd say that something went wrong with whatever they were up to.

I must say, thoughts on that tangent allow for extraordanary, out-of-the-box storytelling! 

As it's an unanticipated twist, it also has a good shock value if implemented properly... I wonder if Teeth of the Tiger uses this element as a plot device...

[General Battuta]

I wouldn't call that 'out-of-the-box', nor unanticipated. It was one of the possibilities that came up a lot ten years ago when we first started having these debates about the ending.

The big problem with it is that it diminishes the menace of the Shivans, which cheapens the drama of the story.

[Thaeris]

I think it's just a question of execution.

For example, the Shivan threat is perhaps made more immediate once more as they did in fact fail in some fashion: they did not disappear to some far corner of the galaxy/other galaxy... There is perhaps a remnant of the Shivan force left behind in close proximity to Terran/Vasudan space. You must add into account that Shivan motives remain unknown to GTVA forces - the fact that they might have failed is simply a subtle plot element allowing the Shivan threat to remain.

[Timerlane]

IIRC, it has also been suggested in the past that the Sathanas lured out to attack the Colossus might have been why(or at least partly so) some of the Sathani(er, Sathanes? Just played through the JAD series ) were left behind. 1 out of 80+ admittedly seems small, but it was a seemingly subtle 'field' to begin with, as far as GTVA sensors were concerned.

[BengalTiger]

I wonder if Teeth of the Tiger uses this element as a plot device...

It would be a spoiler if I said it ...

[TrashMan]

I wouldn't call that 'out-of-the-box', nor unanticipated. It was one of the possibilities that came up a lot ten years ago when we first started having these debates about the ending.

The big problem with it is that it diminishes the menace of the Shivans, which cheapens the drama of the story.

How so? Since when does shivan being fallibale cheapen them? They were fallible from day 1.
The GTVA wouldn't have beaten them otherwise.

[headdie]

I wouldn't call that 'out-of-the-box', nor unanticipated. It was one of the possibilities that came up a lot ten years ago when we first started having these debates about the ending.

The big problem with it is that it diminishes the menace of the Shivans, which cheapens the drama of the story.

How so? Since when does shivan being fallibale cheapen them? They were fallible from day 1.
The GTVA wouldn't have beaten them otherwise.

how about this for scary, the sath losses in the cut scene were planned on the part of the shivans and was an acceptable loss for them

[TopAce]

Of course losing one Sath was acceptable. You still had 80.

[headdie]

Of course losing one Sath was acceptable. You still had 80.

i meant with the ending cut scene the number that deactivated/died in the procedure to find the loss of that number of powerful warships acceptable must be near worst case scenario for the GTVA

[TrashMan]

They lost AT LEAST 4, and probably much more (since the cutscene only shows what happens to several of them. It's safe to assume a similar thing happens to other sathanas groups)

[General Battuta]

I wouldn't call that 'out-of-the-box', nor unanticipated. It was one of the possibilities that came up a lot ten years ago when we first started having these debates about the ending.

The big problem with it is that it diminishes the menace of the Shivans, which cheapens the drama of the story.

How so? Since when does shivan being fallibale cheapen them? They were fallible from day 1.
The GTVA wouldn't have beaten them otherwise.

The GTVA didn't beat them. The GTVA got its ass kicked.

[Thaeris]

I believe the point in stating this is that if the Shivans were infallible the GTVA would have been eradicated completely...

[The E]

But all indications point toward the Shivans being able to utterly annihilate the GTVA without much effort. In FS2, they chose to let the GTVA live. They weren't driven away, or anything like that.

[TopAce]

Except they were sealed off in Capella. Maybe.

[General Battuta]

We don't know what happened.

We don't know whether the Shivans were trying to block off the system or whether the GTVA somehow disrupted their plan (unlikely, but possible.)

The answer, as usual, is 'whatever works for your mod.'

I believe the point in stating this is that if the Shivans were infallible the GTVA would have been eradicated completely...

First, nobody is claiming infallibility or invincibillity. Second, we don't know that was their goal. Third, the node collapse plan may have successfully contained them (even if it is only a temporary measure, as Petrarch says.)

[Inglonias]

I will say this. In Freespace 1, the Shivans were attacking the GTVA. This we can tell from the end of Freespace 1 (Assuming Alpha 1 knows what the **** he's saying, though since he probably saw the Ancient's cutscenes because he mentions them, I would say he does) In FS2, the Shivans seem much less aggressive than the Lucifer fleet was. (After all, if the Shivans really wanted to, they could have attempted a breakout from the Knossos at any time.) But they didn't. Why not? The Lucifer was destroyed by a last ditch act of desperation on the part of the GTA. Had the mission failed, the GTVA would have been destroyed easily. From this, this is my belief.

1. Regardless of whether or not the Lucifer fleet was seperated from the main Shivan force, the Lucifer fleet's goal was the annihilation of the GTVA.

2. The Sathanas fleet did not attempt to destroy the GTVA, and was only attempting to create a buffer, or the GTVA had really advanced so much that the Shivans simply could not make headway.

[General Battuta]

Many campaigns have explanations for all this.

I'm personally pretty sold on one idea, which I think FreeSpace canon actually makes very explicit.

[TrashMan]

The GTVA didn't beat them. The GTVA got its ass kicked.

What about the Lucifur?

We know shivans are very fallible, and they made mistakes before. They failed to stop as at capturing a cruiser, they failed to stop us from getting their tech, or scans, or destroying practicely all of the Lucy fleet.
Not to mention that their pilots are mediocre at best.

I really don't see why shivans making a miscalculation/mistake at Capella can somehow make em less dangerous? They got 80 Sathanasas. Even if they were put retards at the helm they could still plow trough the GTVA.

[General Battuta]

Again, I'm not claiming the Shivans are infallible.

Shivan pilots are actually, canonically, often a bit better than GTVA pilots; check out the AI levels in FRED.

If the Capella detonation was a 'mistake' it's an enormous pratfall. 'Whoops, we blew up a star and a good number of our invincible juggernaughts! Heh heh heh.'

Whatever happened there was, I'd prefer to think, all part of the plan. And I think the narrative supports that.