[TrashMan]

I really don't see any compelling evidence that the Lucifers were mothballed/retired.

I don't see any compelling evidence they weren't. I mean, really people. I can offer one solid fact (we don't see any) and a good, well-thought-out conjecture (cost-based failure) for the retirement, and nobody's tried to even remotely construct an argument for the other posistion. Possibly because without encountering any other Lucifers there's not a starting point, but still.

Not seeing one isn't proof of anything. There could be a million reasons why we don't see one. Maybe there wasn't one in the vicinity? Maybe they decided not to use it against us (why bother when they have 80 sathanases)?

[TrashMan]

If the basic conclusion is that 16 fightercraft can take down a destroyer defended by 40, without doing much more than 20% damage to the destroyer...what conclusion are you assuming they'll draw?

Did you destroy the Eva with only a bunch of fightercraft? And the Ravana? And Liliths..and Cains?
Shivans lost a lot of ships to surgical strikes.

There is no logical reason to retire the Lucifer that I see. And apparently cost/benefit doesn't come into the shivan equation. They have 80 sathanases..(sathanii?). Obviously, building giant ships is not a problem for them.

[TrashMan]

Could you please point me to the part of canon that shows that the Shivans know what destroyed the Lucifer, or that they even know it was destroyed at all?

Silent Threat.

The GTVA is aware of the success of the mission to destroy the Lucifer. (They even reuse the FS1 end cutscene to show this, and you could still count 16 surviving GTA and PVN fighters in it.) There are significant Shivan forces left after the destruction of the Lucifer who are also probably aware of the battle and its outcome...or they're really stupid.

Wasn't that force eventually destroyed/mopped up?
The shivans in FS2 came from the portal beyond GD. Did they have any contact with the local shivies?
Really, there is no reason to believe that the shivans know the Lucifer was destroyed.

No such assumption is required; efficency is a basic goal of all living things. This is basically arguing that sentient species will knowingly sustain a bad ship/weapon/product in service when there is an alternative. I tend towards the assumption that the Shivans probably had nigh-unlimited resources too, but that's not terribly germane.

*cough* Bradley*cough*

[Mongoose]

Plz to be not triple-posting.  Kthxbai.

[NGTM-1R]

Not seeing one isn't proof of anything. There could be a million reasons why we don't see one. Maybe there wasn't one in the vicinity? Maybe they decided not to use it against us (why bother when they have 80 sathanases)?

One hard fact to me, and a well-founded conjecture on the possiblity that the Lucifer has demonstrated fatal design flaws.

No hard facts to you, and no conjecture.

Is this supposed to convince?

Did you destroy the Eva with only a bunch of fightercraft? And the Ravana? And Liliths..and Cains?
Shivans lost a lot of ships to surgical strikes.

16 fightercraft attacked the Eva.  She put up 20 fighters in her own defense. Everybody's going to have bad days; a numerical difference of only 20% losing can be put down to a lot of lesser causes that do not indicate general failure. A numerical difference of better than 100% losing can only be ascribed to massive flaws in design, deployment, or both. Now I didn't see anything wrong with the way the Shivans responded to the attack on the Lucifer. They deployed their fighters in a way that made sense to try and defend the ship. (Or are you going to say otherwise?) But the fighters weren't up to it and the Lucifer wasn't up to defending itself, and this was completely a result of the way the ship was designed.

So no. This argument is full of it.

There is no logical reason to retire the Lucifer that I see. And apparently cost/benefit doesn't come into the shivan equation. They have 80 sathanases..(sathanii?). Obviously, building giant ships is not a problem for them.

Stating that you can't see a logical reason isn't very impressive anymore Trash, considering your documented immunity to logic.

The part about them building giant ships being not a problem? Yeah that's actually an argument for me since it means replacing the Lucifer's not going to be a problem at all.

Wasn't that force eventually destroyed/mopped up?

Yes, but it didn't all die; we know there were Shivans still coming into Ross 128 and still leaving Ross 128 during late Silent Threat.

The shivans in FS2 came from the portal beyond GD. Did they have any contact with the local shivies?

That's actually a valid question. On the other hand, it's also a valid question that if they didn't, how do you know they have Lucifers at all?

Really, there is no reason to believe that the shivans know the Lucifer was destroyed.

As demonstrated above, bullcrap.

*cough* Bradley*cough*

I'm sure that would make sense in context.

Oh wait.

There's no context. And considering the source...

[High Max]

I recall the FS2 box saying 'after 32 years of not hearing from their scouting force' of something. Indicating that the Lucifer fleet was a scouting force. Is the box wrong?

[Scotty]

Nice catch Max.  It says:

Your nemesis has arrived... and they are wondering what happened to their scouting party.

I don't think that exactly counts as canon, but I'm not the expert in those things.

[High Max]

Well it has been almost 10 years since I seen the writing, and I haven't had the box since then. I was 17, almost 18, and it was October 2000 when I got FS1 and FS2 since at first I thought FS1 was a sequel to Descent 3, and thought so a little while after having both games and might have thought it took place in the distant future from Descent 3/Descent 3: Mercenary.

On a side note; what year is the story of Descent supposed to take place. It never says. I just heard the Material Defender say something like "I never thought they would have invented warp drives in the 21st century". So is it the 21st century? What year?

Back to my first statement:

Is there a place online where I can see all the writing that is on the box? I found the box in a place like wikipedia or somewhere else and it showed the writing on the back, but I didn't see it say even that. Strange.

Edit again: nevermind, I found a better view here:

[Timerlane]

Nice catch Max.  It says:

Your nemesis has arrived... and they are wondering what happened to their scouting party.

Could possibly refer to the original Rakshasa and Maras destroyed by the Carthage and Dahshor, as suggested on the FSWiki.

If we go with the idea that Capella was their goal the entire time, and the GTVA was just in the way(remember that the FS2 Shivans' first contact was the NTC Trinity, not the GTC Vigilant, and unlike the Vigilant, we don't know for sure who started that fight). The 'scouting party' may have destroyed the Vigilant, believing it to be reinforcements for the Trinity(as they have no reason to know them to be from two different factions of Terrans).

[High Max]

Read the first paragraph. It says 'what you thought was the Great War'. The box is indicating that the Shivan forces in the Great War were nothing compared to in FS2. Sounds like you are over-analyzing. The size of the Lucifer fleet is a scouting party compared to the entire Shivan armada and any other larger forces aside from the Shivan fleet encountered in FS2. The Lucifer fleet really is nothing, and since the Shivans are so numerous and the Lucifer fleet was fairly small and probably smaller than the GTA/PVN fleet. It was also suggested in the tech description of FS1 that the Shivans could have arrived because they detected subspace activity in T/V space. So the Shivans would scout the area to make sure, obviously. I would also assume that the Lucifer fleet is connected with the rest of the Shivans since it seems unlikely that the Terrans and Vasudans would encounter the Shivans twice in a short span of 32 years purely by chance.

Perhaps long time scales seem short to the Shivans, so maybe that is why they took so long to wonder what happened to the Lucifer fleet. Maybe the reason the Shivans stopped coming in FS1 after the Lucifer fleet was destroyed was because the Lucifer fleet originated  from far away, maybe 40 or more systems away (many intersystem jumps required) from T/V space and only the Lucifer fleet left towards T/V space and went far out of communications range with the rest of the Shivan fleet. So the main fleet probably wouldn't know if the Lucifer fleet was destroyed since there would be too large of a distance gap of no Shivans in between both fleets (a distance gap of many systems and too many jump nodes for communications to reach the main Shivan fleet). Perhaps communications can travel through nodes, but not many nodes without the signal being refreshed since there would be no repeaters of some sort in this scenerio.

[Aardwolf]

DUDE. It's the text on the back of the box. It's nothing more than a glorified ad. YOU are over-analyzing.

[NGTM-1R]

Nobody actually believes the back of the box, because it came from the marketing department.

[Aardwolf]

because it came from the marketing department.

My point exactly.

[TrashMan]

One hard fact to me, and a well-founded conjecture on the possiblity that the Lucifer has demonstrated fatal design flaws.

No hard facts to you, and no conjecture.

Is this supposed to convince?

Is this supposed to convince me?
You have stated one fact that is not indicative of ANYTHING. No direct corellation to your conclusion. Let me repeat that - not seeing a Lucifer proves NOTHING. Zilch. Nada. Zero.

And a fatal design flaw? Any sufficiently big explosion in subspace can apparently destabilize the node. That would mean each and every destroyer has a "fatal design flaw". What you describe isn't really a fatal design flaw.
It's like saying boats sinking if shot is a design flaw.

16 fightercraft attacked the Eva.  She put up 20 fighters in her own defense. Everybody's going to have bad days; a numerical difference of only 20% losing can be put down to a lot of lesser causes that do not indicate general failure. A numerical difference of better than 100% losing can only be ascribed to massive flaws in design, deployment, or both. Now I didn't see anything wrong with the way the Shivans responded to the attack on the Lucifer. They deployed their fighters in a way that made sense to try and defend the ship. (Or are you going to say otherwise?) But the fighters weren't up to it and the Lucifer wasn't up to defending itself, and this was completely a result of the way the ship was designed.

So no. This argument is full of it.

Now you're pulling things out of your a**. The Lucifer will launch X fighters and the EVA will launch X fighters. the number is dependant on how long you take to destroy them and the destroyer.
EVA can very well launch just as many fighters (if not more) than the Lucifer in the mission. Theoreticly, the Lucifer can carry more, but that's irrelevant ATM.
Was EVA up to defending itself? Practicely every ship in FS1 era has pitiful AF defenses. They rely on fighters to protect them. And the GTVA happens to have damn good pilots.
No...no gaping design flaw.

Stating that you can't see a logical reason isn't very impressive anymore Trash, considering your documented immunity to logic.

At least I know what logic is, in order to be immune to it. You...you just have vacuum between those tumors you call ears. And a destinct lack of forum etiquette, sine you stoop down to personal insults.
But mind you, I can and will respond in kind.

The part about them building giant ships being not a problem? Yeah that's actually an argument for me since it means replacing the Lucifer's not going to be a problem at all.

Earlier you were going about the cost of building a Lucifer, remember? And how since it costs much and has a flaw, it doesn't pay for the shivies to build more. And now you make a 180. Sorry, you fail again. Again, having more craft of type X doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna see all of them.
OR should we conclude that the GTVA only has 2 hecates and 8 Erynies? The vasdans have only 1 Hattie? The shivans didn't bring in all the other Sathanases until the very end of the conflict.

Face it man - you just have NO proof whatsoever.

I'm sure that would make sense in context.

Oh wait.

There's no context. And considering the source...

Never heard of a Bradly APC?
History is full of militaries supporting faulty hardware.

[S-99]

But, you're right, AAA beams don't go through shields at all

ALL beams pierce shields by default, unless you flag them not to.

Yes i was being sarcastic. I'll make a note to use the better emoticon next time.

For all we know the shields weren't hard for them to maintain. This is all speculation.

I still think the shields on the lucifer were hard to maintain. TV forces couldn't shield anything bigger than a fighter. The fact that the shivans were able to doesn't mean that it was an elegance of design or efficiency. Given they have 5 reactors, while they got it done, that the whole system was an energy sucker requiring the extra batteries (and even more of an energy sucker to withstand all tv weapons of the time). And most likely separate shield generators for different quadrants all over the ship for full shielding (but the multiple shield generators is me speculating).

While the shivans pulled off a feat of technological miracle in the fs universe, it doesn't look like it was a beauty behind the method ideal. The fs universe still commands that the bigger the object you want to shield, the more equipment and power you'll need for it.

[NGTM-1R]

Is this supposed to convince me?

I know better than to try to convince you by now, Trash.

You have stated one fact that is not indicative of ANYTHING. No direct corellation to your conclusion. Let me repeat that - not seeing a Lucifer proves NOTHING. Zilch. Nada. Zero.

It's circumstantial, true, but it's still one more fact than you've got in your corner. It proves scarcity. But then I already said that, and you didn't read it the first time.

And a fatal design flaw? Any sufficiently big explosion in subspace can apparently destabilize the node. That would mean each and every destroyer has a "fatal design flaw". What you describe isn't really a fatal design flaw.
It's like saying boats sinking if shot is a design flaw.

Let me put this in simplest terms possible.

I don't care about the blowing up. I haven't talked about the blowing up in several posts because I don't really care about it.

I care about the fact the Lucifer deployed 40-odd fighters in its defense, against sixteen, and lost.

I care about the fact you can destroy a Lucifer only inflicting 20% hull damage.

The blowing up? That's just icing on an ass-shaped cake.

Now you're pulling things out of your a**. The Lucifer will launch X fighters and the EVA will launch X fighters. the number is dependant on how long you take to destroy them and the destroyer.

No, actually I'm going by having checked the missions. The horrible truth is I'm being generous to you. The Lucifer puts twenty in space to oppose you before you can ever reach it with Ursas. It could easily kick out more than forty if you let it.

You're also ignoring the fact the Eva, being significantly easier to just run up and blow the **** out of, rarely ever reaches twenty. Again, I'm being generous.

And once more, you can't dispute my point about the Lucifer's design being weak and flawed because it's possible to destroy it while inflicting very little actual damage.

EVA can very well launch just as many fighters (if not more) than the Lucifer in the mission. Theoreticly, the Lucifer can carry more, but that's irrelevant ATM.

But again, won't, because you can Leeroy it easily.

Was EVA up to defending itself? Practicely every ship in FS1 era has pitiful AF defenses. They rely on fighters to protect them.

Yes. It has better turret coverage. And it doesn't blow up if you knock out a few subsystems that constitute very little of its actual hull strength.

And the GTVA happens to have damn good pilots.

If you check the missions, you'd see that the average GTA/PVN pilot is actually not as good as his Shivan opposite number. They're one AI class lower, sometimes more. Keep demonstrating your ignorance, man.

At least I know what logic is, in order to be immune to it. You...you just have vacuum between those tumors you call ears. And a destinct lack of forum etiquette, sine you stoop down to personal insults.

That's not an insult, actually. It's insulting, I admit, and you have my apologies for what they're worth. But you demonstrably got kicked out of GD because you were unable and/or unwilling to conduct a logical discourse. I wanted to warn the people who don't frequent GD what they're seeing here. I'm certainly not doing it for your benefit.

But mind you, I can and will respond in kind.

Says the man who resorts to personal attacks first usually.

Earlier you were going about the cost of building a Lucifer, remember? And how since it costs much and has a flaw, it doesn't pay for the shivies to build more. And now you make a 180. Sorry, you fail again. Again, having more craft of type X doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna see all of them.

I don't care about raw cost. I care about comparative cost; that it took less to destroy the Lucifer, far less, then it did to build it.

Never heard of a Bradly APC?
History is full of militaries supporting faulty hardware.

The Brad? It's a good vehicle. Better than the LAV or Stryker in a lot of ways. Impervious to common RPGs for a start, also has integrated anti-tank capablity. If you want a mere people-bus, sure, a Stryker or some model of BTR is probably better, but if you're supposed fight as well, then...well maybe you'd want a BMP-3, but a Brad ain't a bad option.

So basically you're demonstrating your ignorance again.

Now there's plenty of cases of people pushing faulty hardware, it's true.

They're also almost always cases of not knowing the hardware is faulty.

[QuantumDelta]

I don't care about raw cost. I care about comparative cost; that it took less to destroy the Lucifer, far less, then it did to build it.

You're so full of crap, it cost more than several destroyers, a home planet, two space stations, and access to a home system to build did it?
I make roflz now.

[Lucika]

Wait, why is the Hammer of Light shown on the box?

[TrashMan]

I know better than to try to convince you by now, Trash.

So you finally realized your arguments are crap. Good for you,

It's circumstantial, true, but it's still one more fact than you've got in your corner. It proves scarcity. But then I already said that, and you didn't read it the first time.

No, it doesn't prove scarcity.
I don't know what broken logic you're using, but no sane person could possibly claim that not seeing a lucy in FS2 proves they're scarce.

I care about the fact the Lucifer deployed 40-odd fighters in its defense, against sixteen, and lost.

I care about the fact you can destroy a Lucifer only inflicting 20% hull damage.

So? The GTVA deployed the best craft and pilots it had.
Don' you, as alpha 1, kill of dozens of fighter per mission? 16 vs. 40 are not bad odds for terrans, given how many shivan fighters die.

And yea...and ships with a reactor subsystem can be destroyed (if so scripted). Especially if you use weapons design specificy to destroy subsystems and not the hull.

No, actually I'm going by having checked the missions. The horrible truth is I'm being generous to you. The Lucifer puts twenty in space to oppose you before you can ever reach it with Ursas. It could easily kick out more than forty if you let it.

You're also ignoring the fact the Eva, being significantly easier to just run up and blow the **** out of, rarely ever reaches twenty. Again, I'm being generous.

And once more, you can't dispute my point about the Lucifer's design being weak and flawed because it's possible to destroy it while inflicting very little actual damage.

*YAWN*
Oh, but I can dispute your point.
No design is perfect. Every ship will have it's weak spots. Weapon magazines, reactors, engines, places where the armor is thinner, etc... You cannot make a ship wihtout weakness. It is realisticly impossible. You cna only make those weaknesses more difficult to exploit.
The Lucifer did a super job of hiding it's weaknesses.

There is only ONE way to exploit that weakness, and it requires making a surgical strike in a very limited time window, and the knowledge to track ships into subspace AND the knowledge of the weakness in the first place.

If you check the missions, you'd see that the average GTA/PVN pilot is actually not as good as his Shivan opposite number. They're one AI class lower, sometimes more. Keep demonstrating your ignorance, man.

FRED settings don't interest me. Nothing in the game or fluff suggests terran pilots are inferior.
shivans die in droves. Terran/vasudan piltos don't.

If you follow FRED, the Lucifer really is invulnerable, because it has the invulnerable flag.

That's not an insult, actually. It's insulting, I admit, and you have my apologies for what they're worth. But you demonstrably got kicked out of GD because you were unable and/or unwilling to conduct a logical discourse. I wanted to warn the people who don't frequent GD what they're seeing here. I'm certainly not doing it for your benefit.

I actually had a nice and production char with GB over PM's after I was kicked. You can ask her yourself - she will confirm it was an misunderstanding and an overreaction from a mods part.

Not that I don't see what you're trying to do here, mind you.
Trying to tear down my argument by attacking my character, trying to paint me as unreasonable, under the veil of "informing others".
Very cheap tactic, very transparent. Unfortunately, this isn't a popularity contest.

Says the man who resorts to personal attacks first usually.

HA! this is rich.
I dare you to actually find a instance where I resorted to insults first.
If you manage to even find one, I will be very much impressed.

I don't care about raw cost. I care about comparative cost; that it took less to destroy the Lucifer, far less, then it did to build it.

You should be asking yourself  "Did it justify it's cost?"
It single-handedly butchered the T-V alliance. It destroyed far more hardware and took far more lives then any other destroyer by far.
It more than justifies its' cost.

The Brad? It's a good vehicle. Better than the LAV or Stryker in a lot of ways. Impervious to common RPGs for a start, also has integrated anti-tank capablity. If you want a mere people-bus, sure, a Stryker or some model of BTR is probably better, but if you're supposed fight as well, then...well maybe you'd want a BMP-3, but a Brad ain't a bad option.

Do you even know how long it was in development and how terrible it was untill they fixed it?

In 1977 Congress ordered two new evaluations of the IFV program, one by the GAO and one by the Department of the Army, under General Pat Crizer. The GAO report was critical of the XM2's height, mobility, complexity, lack of clear doctrinal use, and lack of CBR protection. Based upon this criticism the OMB deleted M2/3 funding from the FY 79 budget.[4] In 1978 the Crizer report asserted that the basic design was consistent with doctrine and development of a IFV with superior characteristics would be costly and pose significant developmental risks,[4] An additional study, the IFV/CFV Special Study Group, evaluated whether an improved version of the M113 could be used instead of the M2/3 IFV. Their conclusion was that extensive redesign would be necessary for even marginal improvements in M113 derivatives.[4] In October 1978 Congress reauthorized procurement funds.

[General Battuta]

I'm a guy, damn it! Rian shared my account with me back before she got her own, which probably produced this whole misunderstanding. But I have been male for a good while now.