Author Topic: Shivan Theories  (Read 39036 times)

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i'm not saying they would have had trouble leveling an entire base, just that the did it for a little cain-class cruiser. and the shivans dont seem to view the loss of a single interceptor much of a problem, unless they thought, "hey, they stole one of our fighters, let's reduce their homeworlds to glass!" which i think is a smidgen unlikely

  

Offline High Max

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Maybe they just destroyed the base to prevent the GTA from studying the Cain or using it for themselves, and probably would have destroyed the base anyways even without the capture of that Cain. They no doubt destroyed that Cain while they were at it too.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 03:55:14 am by High Max »
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Offline Blue Lion

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i'm not saying they would have had trouble leveling an entire base, just that the did it for a little cain-class cruiser. and the shivans dont seem to view the loss of a single interceptor much of a problem, unless they thought, "hey, they stole one of our fighters, let's reduce their homeworlds to glass!" which i think is a smidgen unlikely

Maybe they realized that they would take a prized catch like their first captured cruiser to an important place?

 

Offline Timerlane

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It was kind of a bold action; if the Shivans suddenly disabled and carted off a GTA cruiser or two to do who-knows-what with the crews(seeing as our technology probably wouldn't interest them), I'm sure we'd promptly move to get them back as well.

Another thought, partly as mentioned elsewhere: According to Silent Threat, "rogue elements within the GTI may have known about the existence of the Shivan threat prior to the attack on Ross 128", and that the GTI may have "been studying Shivan culture and technology at Jotunheim since the massacre at Ross 128". How exactly would they have done the latter without kidnapping and/or stealing small amounts of Shivan personnel and ships(or cargo, maybe debris); grabbing a live cruiser right out from under them was the final straw.

Perhaps the Shivans have/had a touch of classical 'proud warrior race' or 'elder race' arrogance, and having a cruiser full of their warriors disabled and carried off by the puny humans was some sort of grave dishonor or embarrassment that had to be avenged/punished.

 

Offline Bob-san

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It was kind of a bold action; if the Shivans suddenly disabled and carted off a GTA cruiser or two to do who-knows-what with the crews(seeing as our technology probably wouldn't interest them), I'm sure we'd promptly move to get them back as well.

Another thought, partly as mentioned elsewhere: According to Silent Threat, "rogue elements within the GTI may have known about the existence of the Shivan threat prior to the attack on Ross 128", and that the GTI may have "been studying Shivan culture and technology at Jotunheim since the massacre at Ross 128". How exactly would they have done the latter without kidnapping and/or stealing small amounts of Shivan personnel and ships(or cargo, maybe debris); grabbing a live cruiser right out from under them was the final straw.

Perhaps the Shivans have/had a touch of classical 'proud warrior race' or 'elder race' arrogance, and having a cruiser full of their warriors disabled and carried off by the puny humans was some sort of grave dishonor or embarrassment that had to be avenged/punished.
An interesting perspective none the less. But I have to agree; carting off a few disabled fighters is nothing compared to carting off an active Cruiser; the Shivans probably knew precisely where that cruiser was and would have blown it as soon as they considered it compromised.
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Offline Klaustrophobia

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that event always gave me more of the impression of an ambush rather than retaliation.  not that they necessarily allowed it to be captured on purpose, but once it was, it revealed the location of the ribos base, so they leveled it.  no sense in NOT using intel like that.
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Offline High Max

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But I think they could have found it anyways. They found the homeworlds and other installations without that tactic. Perhaps they didn't want Shivan tech failing into their hands. The Alliance has a nack for taking Shivan tech and using it against the Shivans. That and finding other tech is what enabled the Alliance win the Great War (adaptability). They learned how to adapt, as the cutscene says.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2010, 04:54:19 pm by High Max »
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Offline Marcov

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Shivans are very vengeful creatures. That's why they blew up Capella. Thinking that the GTA and PVE whipped their asses they pulled much of their forces to put them back in their place.
With the rapid increase of FS fan-made campaigns, we're giving the GTVA a harder time with more violence and genocide.

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Offline High Max

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How do you know they are vengeful and that is their motives? Remember, they don't think like humans and revenge is a human mindset. They blew up Capella out of revenge but spared the other systems? Plus, they attacked the GTA first for no obvious reason. Doesn't sound like vengence to me. But they could have destroyed Capella to prevent the GTVA from entering their space again since it sealed off the nodes.
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Offline Klaustrophobia

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if capella was revenge, it was very poorly conceived.  the evacuation was almost complete when the star blew, all they got was a handfull of cruisers and transports.
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Offline Rodo

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if capella was revenge, it was very poorly conceived.  the evacuation was almost complete when the star blew, all they got was a handfull of cruisers and transports.


And they destroyed the fragile economy of the GTVA, almost leading to an uncertain future

Also let's not think about the fate of the thousands that were rescued from Capella, the good old Derelict conflict....refugees seeking for a new home.

Mmm.. no, I change my mind... I would dare to say they did a lot of damage :nod:
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Offline General Battuta

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Compared to what they could have done with all those Saths? No, they did nothing.

They had multiple juggernaughts for every world in the GTVA. One Sath could take out a planet.

 

Offline IronBeer

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I'd hesitate to say "nothing". Capella was a highly-populated and (likely) significant industrial power.
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Offline Snail

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I'd hesitate to say "nothing". Capella was a highly-populated and (likely) significant industrial power.
If they really wanted to destroy the GTVA they could've done it in days with that fleet.

 

Offline IronBeer

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I know. I'm just being snarky about Bat's wording.  :p
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Offline Droid803

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It didn't seem like they were intending to do anything to the GTVA as a whole. They were more concerned about...Capella itself.
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Offline Desertfox287

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It didn't seem like they were intending to do anything to the GTVA as a whole. They were more concerned about...Capella itself.
Yeah, I agree

 
Could it be that the Shivans are some sort of hybrid Von Nueman machine? I don't know if this theory has been covered or not but this is my theory:
(before you launch into reading this, I recommend http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-replicating_spacecraft and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-replicating_machine)

Basically, we know from the tech room and description towards the end of FS2 that the Shivans are partly biological and technological, they are uber-destructive in the course of achieving their goal, there are A LOT of them, and they have been around for thousands of years.

From this, I would deduct/assume the following:
1. the biotechnology means they were either 'built' by way of genetic modification by something else, or they are an advanced enough to race to bioengineer themselves. 2. Whatever this goal is, it is some sort of prime directive - they accordingly follow nothing else by way of surrender or peacemaking efforts. 3. Their population being so high, I would assume either a massive string of overpopulated colonies to give host to the pilots, or that they are being constructed. 4. The sheer age of them gives me some indication that they have an extended history with the universe, yet their origins have to lie somewhere within it.

Continuing the thought process, I'm considering the technology aspect of it, comparing it with what else I know. The apparently endless population, the singular drive for something; could the Shivans be a race of Von-Neumann-like machines, albeit exceptionally complex? A self-replication machine would be constructed with only few directives in mind - the main two being (mostly likely) to reproduce and explore. If we take the results of the reproduce and explore idea many years after the point of construction, the machines would have a vast population and also an incredible knowledge of how space works.

For example. Imagine each machine created were given the directive of create 2 more machines and explore 10km^3 of space per generation. The first generation would have 1 machine and explore 10km^3. That one would spawn 2 more, who would each explore 10km^3. So for the second generation, we would have 2 new ships and 20km^3 more explored. For the third, we would have 4 new ships and another 40km^3 explored, totalling 7 ships/machines and 70km^3 explored. Each generation could be manufactured very quickly, depending on resources and technlogy. In a well stocked area, new generations could be built in a day. Given the number of days in a year and the number of years the Shivans have existed, it explains the massive population of apparently expendable machines. And this is only given the constraints. If machines were given directives to reproduce and explore infinitely, the population would tend towards infinity even faster.

The von-nuemann assumption explains a few aspects of their existence perfectly, as they have had millenia to replicate and explore, resulting in the incredible force the Terrans enounter in the games.

However, that assumption doesn't account specifically for the different types of craft we encounter, nor their origins, and I think for insight into this we have to guess a lot more:

So, the second half of my von nuemann theory is that what if an ancient species (not necessarily The Ancients, though that is possible) built the Shivans with purposes of defending or exploration. But that species was advanced enough to program their defense/exploration craft to evolve over time; to self-improve the self-replication.
This would explain the way they evolve - that its in their programming to not only (as we assume) replicate and explore, but also to defend and in turn evolve.
Could the Shivans be an advanced race of self-replicating machines that have evolved not entirely dissimilar to the human race (i.e. different types of spacecraft, pilots, weaponry, planetary takeovers)?

The final question to this is who made them and what happened to them? Again, working through assumption, we don't know who made them, but that species is most likely extinct, disturbingly at the hands of their own creations: The Shivans replication cycles and directives got out of control and they result in destroying their creators in light of their own objectives. This idea would explain why no other such 'origins' race has been found, and is a strong arguing point for the "Ancients built the Shivan's" idea.

I think the von-nuemann theory certainly covers most of the bases, but there are other possibilities.

For example, the Shivans may have engineered themselves to become what they are today; there might be no 'origins' race and instead the Shivans have bioengineered themselves to become the biotechnological entity that they now are. Since they are dated as being in an extraterrestrial war against the Ancients, they were at least as developed as the Terrans of the game, but thousands of years prior. Over all that time, the Shivans must have continued their technological advancement to such a level where the improvements to their technology were best implemented through biotechnology. In turn, they may have developed psychically to produce this apparent hive mind effect (Though keeping in mind the hive mind status is probably flexible - whether it is simply a awareness or a full communication is unclear, though more likely the former due to the fact that they still have technological communications). In conclusion, this alternative idea would certainly explain their existence more lucidly, but it doesn't necessarily hit all the targets.

Please comment/constructively critisize on those strands of my thinking, I'd like to develop the ideas further. :)

 

Offline Desertfox287

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 :jaw: interesting theory   nothing more to say but that :warp:

 

Offline The E

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It's "von Neumann". Not "von Nuemann".

Other than that, it's certainly one of the better theories I've read. I am, however, contractually bound to disagree with them  :p.
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