[Snail]

I have no problems with your post except the idea that the Ancients created the Shivans. Were this true, we would have at least some hints indicating the fact.

Also, please read the Ancient Monologues - These seem to directly contradict your theory. The Ancients encountered numerous races (and annihilated them) before they encountered the Shivans (and were annihilated themselves) - There is no mention of the Ancients building the Shivans.


Also, the Ancients being the creators of the Shivans goes contradictory to Bosch's "cities of Troy" comment:

What if there had been countless races, stretching back into infinity and like the nine cities of Troy, each civilization had been built on the rubble of the one that came before, each annihilated by the Shivans.

This seems to suggest that (or at least, suggests that the Ancients believed) the Shivans had existed for more than millenia, and had annihilated many species before the Ancients.


If the Shivans are the creation of another species, I think we should assume this species was much, much older than the Ancients.

[Bob-san]

I have no problems with your post except the idea that the Ancients created the Shivans. Were this true, we would have at least some hints indicating the fact.

Also, please read the Ancient Monologues - These seem to directly contradict your theory. The Ancients encountered numerous races (and annihilated them) before they encountered the Shivans (and were annihilated themselves) - There is no mention of the Ancients building the Shivans.


Also, the Ancients being the creators of the Shivans goes contradictory to Bosch's "cities of Troy" comment:

What if there had been countless races, stretching back into infinity and like the nine cities of Troy, each civilization had been built on the rubble of the one that came before, each annihilated by the Shivans.

This seems to suggest that (or at least, suggests that the Ancients believed) the Shivans had existed for more than millenia, and had annihilated many species before the Ancients.


If the Shivans are the creation of another species, I think we should assume this species was much, much older than the Ancients.

For how many stars there are in just the Milky Way, I'd find it tough to believe that (in real life) we are the FIRST or the ONLY species to make it into space (even if our best manned endeavor was orbiting our own satellite and our best unmanned endeavor was exploring our own celestial neighbors). If the Vasudans are there, the Shivans are there, and the Ancients were there, it seems all too likely that there are (many) other races in space. To me, the notion that the Shivans are an artificial race (perhaps spawned by a highly advanced race; perhaps one that mastered biological machines) isn't impossible. Like Star Trek explored (to a degree), what we don't know eventually can hurt us. The way Capella was attacked and destroyed says the Shivans had no regards for anything we had in that system. We could just as well have had nothing to do with Capella; 80 juggernaughts would have beyond-leveled any GTVA force. Hell, 1 might have, 2 could have, and 3 would have. Would they anticipate their first Sathanas to engage the Big C to be lost? I actually think so. We targeted one specifically and destroyed their best weapons BEFORE it engaged the Colossus; they'd have to withdraw or be destroyed. Our ships are not expendable, but the Shivan ships seem to be.

[NGTM-1R]

For how many stars there are in just the Milky Way, I'd find it tough to believe that (in real life) we are the FIRST or the ONLY species to make it into space (even if our best manned endeavor was orbiting our own satellite and our best unmanned endeavor was exploring our own celestial neighbors). If the Vasudans are there, the Shivans are there, and the Ancients were there, it seems all too likely that there are (many) other races in space. To me, the notion that the Shivans are an artificial race (perhaps spawned by a highly advanced race; perhaps one that mastered biological machines) isn't impossible. Like Star Trek explored (to a degree), what we don't know eventually can hurt us. The way Capella was attacked and destroyed says the Shivans had no regards for anything we had in that system. We could just as well have had nothing to do with Capella; 80 juggernaughts would have beyond-leveled any GTVA force. Hell, 1 might have, 2 could have, and 3 would have. Would they anticipate their first Sathanas to engage the Big C to be lost? I actually think so. We targeted one specifically and destroyed their best weapons BEFORE it engaged the Colossus; they'd have to withdraw or be destroyed. Our ships are not expendable, but the Shivan ships seem to be.

There are a number of assumptions that don't necessarily follow in this post.

The Shivans do not appear interested enough in the GTVA to bother determining what kind of force they were dealing with, and considering how alien they are to both Terrans and Vasudans, Terrans and Vasudans are probably equally alien to them at the least. I don't think they knew or really cared whether the GTVA could take down one Sathanas, they apparently had no real intention of sending just one. The first was merely unlucky enough to be on point and suffered the typical fate of those in a point posistion.

From the Shivan point of view it was entirely possible the were walking into a meatgrinder able to destroy the Sathanas force. They had no way of proving otherwise until Bosch came along (assuming Bosch actually told them anything about GTVA OrBat, which is unlikely even for Bosch; such information is far too easily put to use destroying his beloved humanity), and the Sathanas force was almost certainly in motion before he arrived. Something about what they did to Capella was worth the risk. Shivans almost certainly had no real way of knowing that the GTVA units in Capella weren't waiting on backup or the deployment of specialized weapons before they engaged the Sathanas force; they simply didn't care why the GTVA wasn't fighting them on this, only that the raw fact remained. The Shivan attacks on refugee and evacuation convoys would seem to further serve this goal, by dragging any possible GTVA assets away from attacking the Sathanas fleet and also by serving as a tripwire; increased convoy protection or counterattack against ships serving as fightercraft bases for convoy attacks would forewarn of increasing GTVA strength.

Shivan ships are not necessarily expendible. Though they do get expended quite often, the Lucifer's fleet was apparently much smaller than the combined GTA and PVN forces arrayed against it. There were only three Shivan destroyers seen or mentioned in FS2, two of them multiple times, one of which was mentioned second several systems away from where it was first seen. When commited to the field for a Shivan craft it becomes a matter of do or die; there is no middle ground. We have never seen Shivans break off an engagement except if they were clearly commited to the field in pursuit of a different objective (the first Sathanas). They're not expendible; they're inflexible. Once given orders are rarely or never altered, apparently.

[Bob-san]

For how many stars there are in just the Milky Way, I'd find it tough to believe that (in real life) we are the FIRST or the ONLY species to make it into space (even if our best manned endeavor was orbiting our own satellite and our best unmanned endeavor was exploring our own celestial neighbors). If the Vasudans are there, the Shivans are there, and the Ancients were there, it seems all too likely that there are (many) other races in space. To me, the notion that the Shivans are an artificial race (perhaps spawned by a highly advanced race; perhaps one that mastered biological machines) isn't impossible. Like Star Trek explored (to a degree), what we don't know eventually can hurt us. The way Capella was attacked and destroyed says the Shivans had no regards for anything we had in that system. We could just as well have had nothing to do with Capella; 80 juggernaughts would have beyond-leveled any GTVA force. Hell, 1 might have, 2 could have, and 3 would have. Would they anticipate their first Sathanas to engage the Big C to be lost? I actually think so. We targeted one specifically and destroyed their best weapons BEFORE it engaged the Colossus; they'd have to withdraw or be destroyed. Our ships are not expendable, but the Shivan ships seem to be.

There are a number of assumptions that don't necessarily follow in this post.

The Shivans do not appear interested enough in the GTVA to bother determining what kind of force they were dealing with, and considering how alien they are to both Terrans and Vasudans, Terrans and Vasudans are probably equally alien to them at the least. I don't think they knew or really cared whether the GTVA could take down one Sathanas, they apparently had no real intention of sending just one. The first was merely unlucky enough to be on point and suffered the typical fate of those in a point posistion.

From the Shivan point of view it was entirely possible the were walking into a meatgrinder able to destroy the Sathanas force. They had no way of proving otherwise until Bosch came along (assuming Bosch actually told them anything about GTVA OrBat, which is unlikely even for Bosch; such information is far too easily put to use destroying his beloved humanity), and the Sathanas force was almost certainly in motion before he arrived. Something about what they did to Capella was worth the risk. Shivans almost certainly had no real way of knowing that the GTVA units in Capella weren't waiting on backup or the deployment of specialized weapons before they engaged the Sathanas force; they simply didn't care why the GTVA wasn't fighting them on this, only that the raw fact remained. The Shivan attacks on refugee and evacuation convoys would seem to further serve this goal, by dragging any possible GTVA assets away from attacking the Sathanas fleet and also by serving as a tripwire; increased convoy protection or counterattack against ships serving as fightercraft bases for convoy attacks would forewarn of increasing GTVA strength.

Shivan ships are not necessarily expendible. Though they do get expended quite often, the Lucifer's fleet was apparently much smaller than the combined GTA and PVN forces arrayed against it. There were only three Shivan destroyers seen or mentioned in FS2, two of them multiple times, one of which was mentioned second several systems away from where it was first seen. When commited to the field for a Shivan craft it becomes a matter of do or die; there is no middle ground. We have never seen Shivans break off an engagement except if they were clearly commited to the field in pursuit of a different objective (the first Sathanas). They're not expendible; they're inflexible. Once given orders are rarely or never altered, apparently.

Inflexible? To be honest, I've never looked at it quite that way. But there is a lot of evidence of that inflexibility; they continue on with orders until there's nothing to fight over. Like in the first Gamma Drax mission; they lose a cruiser and a few fighters but their transports & freighters don't appear to really notice. When our cap ships enter and threaten their Cains, they send a load of bombers and call it a day.

Could explain the relative weakness of the Lucifer fleet; while a huge hurtle for the GTA & PVN, we still beat the fleet. Assuming that intel about that defeat was known to the Shivans in FS2, they might find it difficult to believe that 80 Sathanas juggernaughts could be defeated (though a handful would be possible). I'm still "wondering" about how the Big C's destruction REALLY made sense. A sitting duck? Meh; buying but a few minutes, perhaps. Saving a few lives, perhaps. But the loss of tens of thousands of personnel on the GTVA Baseball Bat? I don't see what's too much different. Keeping the Baseball Bat back in a shipyard (being repaired or at least patched up) seems like a better option.

[High Max]

When our cap ships enter and threaten their Cains, they send a load of bombers and call it a day.

There was only one Cain in that mission and not even close to a load of bombers. More like 3 Seraphim. Why the exaggeration? Maybe you mean in that kind of general situation and not that specific mission. Cains aren't a valuable warship anyways, so maybe it would hold true in all situations to not defend it well, as you suggest, since I don't recall one being protected much in FS2. The Taranis was better protected then normal for a Cain though. It's a strike cruiser and isn't meant to be in the theatre of operations for long anyways.

I'm still "wondering" about how the Big C's destruction REALLY made sense. A sitting duck? Meh; buying but a few minutes, perhaps.

Did you notice that the Colossus was disabled? That makes it a sitting duck. Perhaps the CO just didn't mention that to Command. FREDing-wise, it shouldn't matter if it is disabled or not, as far as I know. Just don't code it to move in the mission file and it won't. So perhaps it being disabled was the real reason why the C didn't get out, because it couldn't whether it wanted to or not.

Edited to fix typo.

[Bob-san]

I'm still "wondering" about how the Big C's destruction REALLY made sense. A sitting duck? Meh; buying but a few minutes, perhaps.

Did you notice that the Colossus was disabled? That makes it a sitting duck. Perhaps the CO just didn't mention that to Command. FREDing-wise, it shouldn't matter if it is disabled or not, as far as I know. Just don't code it to move in the mission file and it won't. So perhaps it being disabled was the real reason why the C didn't get out, because it couldn't whether it wanted to or not.

Edited to fix typo.
[/quote]
I mean the decision to engage in the first place; having a damaged megaship is better than no megaship at all. On the other hand, with a superweapon like the GTVA Baseball Bat roaming after the invasion, it's a dice throw on who survives and who dies.

[Snail]

I have a new theory.

One question I was never able to answer was where the Seraphim came from after the GW. If we go on the assumption that the Lucy and Sathanas fleets were separated, it seems strange for a new design to just pop out of nowhere if the Shivans didn't have shipyards of somekind supporting the Lucifer fleet...

Well, as someone pointed out earlier, we know very little about Shivan capital ships - It may be possible that Shivan destroyers with fighterbays actually manufacture their own fighter complements onboard, which would explain how they never seem to run out of fighters. After the Lucifer went down the remaining Shivan destroyers might have initiated some kind of contingency to put the Seraphim into production...


Meh Iunno




EDITed for superior grammar

[crossfire92]

Interesting idea Snail, it would make sense if you follow the idea of the Shivans being a 'wandering' race: Having shipyards stationary in space can be very unhelpful; in the event of a war you want them far enough from front lines to be safe yet close enough to deliver craft effectively, and in the event of an attack they are confined to one location and aren't built for warfare endurance.
Hence, by adapting to make their shipyards mobile, the Shivans could sever ties to any planets, roving through the galaxy searching for materials to fuel the capital ships.
Makes sense to me
Edit: This also helps explain why we never find any Shivan shipyards - though I'm not quite sure how it explains the sporadic cargo depots we encounter...

[Snail]

The cargo depots and transports might contain the fuel/resources needed for the manufacturing?


What kind of stuff did we find in scanned Shivan cargo containers anyhow? Pretty strange stuff... So strange they seem to spontaneously explode in Shell Game... lulz

[crossfire92]

I was thinking about that, but thought it might be easier for them to just go ship-to-ship to transfer the materials, if not via shuttles.

On the other hand, maybe the strange materials could be collections of more rare substances; i.e. if they were collecting a rare chemical that needed to be amassed for one particular construct, they may have condensed them into those containers and collected them at that spot.

But I could be overlooking the situation, having an open Shivan cargo dump could make sense for several reasons - any Shivan vessels lost or broken would have a target to reach to repair and refuel etc, or for ships that are tracing back over routes already fully exploited by previous shivans who would need an artificial source of materials if the planets/elements necessary for them weren't present in that area of space...

[Timerlane]

Most of the Shivan cargo we encounter in the original campaign seems to be fighter parts(well, Pandora's Box could have been any kind of Shivan sensor arrays, though the shields that the rest of the Ikeya task force found/scanned almost certainly were fighter shields), but the containers in Enter the Dragon and Playing Judas were respectively, part of a fighter repair center, and specifically identified as yet more fighter parts, according to the debrief), or 'indeterminate'(as in Shell Game).

I think those are the only missions where we encounter Shivan cargo containers, and I don't know/remember what the containers in the original The Wait contained.

Enter the Dragon did mention "multiple supply depots scattered across the [Deneb] system" as well as the repair centers for fighters, so it would seem likely that there is more than just fighter parts out there; we just don't get to see it firsthand.

[High Max]

@snail: I don't think Seraphim are anything new. Why would the Shivans be space faring for so long and all of a sudden invent a bomber that isn't much better than a FS2 era Allied bomber? Also, recall that Seraphim are in FS2, so this indicates that the Lucifer fleet was not cut off from the Shivan armada we encountered in FS2, and if it was cut off, then all those ships existed long before the time of being separated and both sides never stopped using that bomber. But I doubt they were completely separated. If they were, why only 32 years pass and we encounter the Shivans again?

Also, in FS2, we see cargo and they have fighter parts too.

I would like to know what materials their ships are made out of and where it comes from. Is it molybdenum? I doubt nebulas are the only source of Shivan material. Could some of it come from subspace somehow?

[Timerlane]

Overconfidence, perhaps, or lack of need? The Lucifer cut through everything in it's path just fine.

I also wonder if they can't practically be launched/stored from fighterbays and loading machinery meant for normal-size fighters. AFAIK, they always appear from subspace, and never from a fighterbay(we've seen Nephilim launch from a destroyer, but not Seraphim). I imagine this isn't a problem for Sathanas bays, though.

Maybe they actually have to unpack, assemble, and keep them at the above fighter repair centers(or something similar). Given Shivans don't need environmental suits, they could easily get pilots into them without needing an Azrael to individually dock with each bomber.

If Seraphim cannot be launched from destroyers, they might have had trouble keeping up with the Lucifer fleet(as the GTA certainly did), and were thus unable to participate in the main Shivan thrust, and thus only came into play when the Shivans were put on the defensive.

EDIT: That's right; we also know the FS1 Shivans had Nahemas or some other very similar bomber class somewhere, from the existence of the Sekhmet as an HoL design/prototype, yet neither appeared at all in FS1/ST. That's an odd one to have to explain, given the Vasudans never seem to have reported the Nahema to the GTA. It would seem to suggest that the Shivans used the Nahema exclusively in HoL space, or the HoL seized Shivan cargo that happened to include Nahema parts(and the FS1 Shivans still never fielded them at all).

[IronBeer]

Uhm, I'd just like to point out that the Astaroth is too small for even a human pilot to fit into. This strongly suggests to me that the Astaroth is either an autonomous drone or remotely controlled somehow.

[High Max]

Maybe it just appears too small from the FS2 perspective but if it was life-sized, it would appear to easily fit any pilot into it. As we know, ships from a FS2 ingame perspective appear much smaller than they really are supposed to be. Appearances can be deceiving.

[IronBeer]

As we know, ships from a FS2 ingame perspective appear much smaller than they really are supposed to be.

Wut?

It's too late for me to argue anything- desperately need some sleep- but the sizes for all models in FreeSpace are measured, in fact, in meters. Pop a few models into ModView or PCS if you don't believe me.

I've actually done side-by-side comparisons against the Ulysses in FRED- try it yourself. In fact, the Dragon probably isn't piloted by a Shivan in the full 5-limbed exo-suit/skeleton/whatever.

[High Max]

I believe you.

[crossfire92]

...for the thing about the smaller sizes of craft...could it be that the Shivans have some kind of exosuit thats grafted onto themselves most of the time? then removed for piloting?

But on the other hand, the small ships are of very low hull integrity anyway; it's quite likely that they're indeed advanced drones designed for exploration without enough protection to justify a skilled pilot.

And as for what materials the Shivans use...I'm not really sure. What kinds of things are the Terrans and Vasudans using at this point in time; do we know?
My guesses would have been HE3 for fuel and some variation of high-tensile steel or carbon fibre that is processed from raw elements, but not too sure.

[IronBeer]

The Sekhmet bomber is stated to use a Molybdenum alloy in its armor plating...

[Edit/addition]: The Iceni frigate and Ares fighter also use depleted Uranium in (parts of, at least) their armor.
Don't forget that the armor in use on FreeSpace strike craft, even the weakest, is capable of withstanding multiple nuclear munitions (the Fury rocket is stated to have a 3 kT yield).

[TrashMan]

Did you notice that the Colossus was disabled? That makes it a sitting duck. Perhaps the CO just didn't mention that to Command. FREDing-wise, it shouldn't matter if it is disabled or not, as far as I know. Just don't code it to move in the mission file and it won't. So perhaps it being disabled was the real reason why the C didn't get out, because it couldn't whether it wanted to or not.

In-dialogue suggest that Collie was capable of moving. Why would command order it to jump out if it's jump drives weren't working? the Collossuss CO doesn't say they can't jump out - he sez they won't.
And there are waypoints for hte Collie. So obviously it was disabled in the last moment before hte game was shipped because somethnig in the mission wasn't working properly.

Either way, I agree that the Colli staying there was pointless. From the heroic "we won't pull out, we'll delay them" to it's destruction - 15 seconds. Yes, the "heroic" sacrifice bought you 15 seconds. Totally not worth it.