Author Topic: New Features for POF Version 3000 [FS2 = Version 2117]  (Read 28537 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline LtNarol

  • Biased Banshee
  • 211
    • http://www.3dap.com/hlp/hosted/the158th
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
arg, i was under the impression this was a new model editing program for FS2, nevermind

 

Offline Nico

  • Venom
    Parlez-vous Model Magician?
  • 212
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
ok.. im killing this "turret dock" thingy right now - it's called overheard people. and unreasonable


really? in what way? it's cool, and, first of all, handy. really, it's just a matter of giving ships a lots of dock points. The FS2 ships would have lots of docking points, I could do it w/o any pb. not even a need to tweak any other pof stat.
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
it would be WAAAY more hassles then worth - it would break reverse-compat, it would require a massive amount of house-keeping thereby slowing down the game... on and on
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 

Offline Nico

  • Venom
    Parlez-vous Model Magician?
  • 212
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
just for some docking points? you must be kidding.
ok, let's try this: just allow ships to have all their docking points working at the same time, that's all of what's required.
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
yes.. we can do multiple active dockpoints.. but not the turrets docking thing
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 

Offline Nico

  • Venom
    Parlez-vous Model Magician?
  • 212
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
well, give me 80 docking points, I need nothing else :nod:
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
venom... no

we're not going to allow that.. it'll slow down the game
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 

Offline Nico

  • Venom
    Parlez-vous Model Magician?
  • 212
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
Ok, Why not? is it coz you can't? it's up to the modders to judge to what extent they can use stuff. they don't have to be limited by the tool. That's the same kind of stupid reasoning that brought that 5000 polys limits for Modelview or any cob to pof converter, stupid limit which has no reason to be anymore since the computers can now handle that. If a dude puts too many stuff in a mod, it will suck. if he could have put more but wasn't allowed because of a tool limit, it's the tool that sucks. that may not please you, but it's true. Limits have to be set by the modder, not imposed by a limited tool. You can do it w/o any more work, I'm sure of that. Don't put a limit that has no meaning.
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
LISTEN TO BE BEFORE RESPONDING - i've told you this several times - the OVERHEAD required to do something like that would be an atrocity - it would slow the game to a crawl.. so ____NO____
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 

Offline Nico

  • Venom
    Parlez-vous Model Magician?
  • 212
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
ok, I guess no need to argue with you right? :rolleyes: sure, do it YOUR way then, right?
bah, no need for me to suggest anything, coz that would give you work (omg!), and that's a waste of time for me. Don't waste your time to reply either, it's useless, I won't argue anymore.
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
excuse me for getting annoyed by you pressing an issue that i've already told you that is not feasable because of performance issue
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 

Offline Bobboau

  • Just a MODern kinda guy
    Just MODerately cool
    And MODest too
  • 213
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
Kazan he has no idea what you are saying, I do understand, basically what he is saying is that if you do it this way the main problem will be is for one ship you will have 90 ship classes running at the same time, as opposed to just one, making it 90 times more processor intensive,
Now as I understand it, this is somewhat irrelevant, because you will be able to do what you want Kazan be damned, because the new engine will be able to support as many docking points as needed,

Now Kazan I have been thinking of this and from an overhead point of view, it may be better to run the turrets in a form like this, were there are "soft" turrets which would consist of a simple xyz and a vector. Then you can store the geometry of them and transformation\rotation data in one space and use it over and over again. Allowing for the standard "hard" turrets would allow this to be reverse compatible. It would also allow the custom placement of different turret types (and possibly make random rotation axes easier), we may need to make a new turrets.tbl to load a simple pof which would hold geometry\hierarchy data and the standard TGUN data which would be contanconated on to the standard turret data.

I am in favor of doing this if it isn't entierly imposable, from the point of this being usefull to make diferen't variants of ships without makeing a new ship entry in the tbl, and making it somewhat easier to set up turrets.

and reread you're last few posts and imagin someone wrote that to you for an idea you had that thought would a good idea and one wich you could not understand what they were saying
Bobboau, bringing you products that work... in theory
learn to use PCS
creator of the ProXimus Procedural Texture and Effect Generator
My latest build of PCS2, get it while it's hot!
PCS 2.0.3


DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Martinus

  • Aka Maeglamor
  • 210
    • Hard Light Productions
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
I was assuming that since this is an open source project (or is it? Clarification would be useful) that new options could be added later. In which case if a method of adding these dock points with less overhead is found that it can simply be added to the existing code.

Wouldn't it be sensible in any case to get an engine that supports standard POFs before getting too ambitious and designing the Uber POF that might not even be made?

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
i should have noted that i will not give 'special attention' to that capability.. but if he wants to exploit the multi-doc capabilities
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
and Mae has a point
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 

Offline Sandwich

  • Got Screen?
  • Administrator
  • 212
    • Minecraft
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Brainzipper
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
Kazan, although I agree that the turrets thingy would be a huge performance hit, let me correct you on something: that feature, or any new feature, would not break backwards compatability. Keep in the engine the code to read the current POF version, and have a different bit of code that would deal with the new POF version.

Or am I missing something?

P.S. I'm not suggesting that the multi-turret docking should be done, just pointing out that I believe we could add any and all the new POF features we want w/o sacrificing backwards compatability.
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
excuse me for getting annoyed by you pressing an issue that i've already told you that is not feasable because of performance issue


The 'old' FS2 engine can differentiate between turret polyobjects and hull objects, and it can manipulate their firing points, etc.  According to FRED2, you can also set their AI levels.

Were it not for the dockpoint limit on FS ships, this is easily possible within the current engine - a 2 year old engine.  Granted, you'd possibly have to use some SEXP-ing, but it's not beyond the realms of possiblity.

So why the performance issue?  It's already done by I-War 2, using models that are probably more complex than what a modeller would come up for FSF - given limits to follow.

What exactly is the performance hit from?  What causes it?  How can you say it's a performance hit when you have neither coded AI, physics, weapons (etc), ship class handling, etc to even test the basic performance?

Oh, and overhead is something that exists only to dismiss stuff.  you can pretty much code in anything nowadays - all you have to do is keep it tight and optimise the code accordingly.  The number 1 problem of fast computers is that people forget to do this - because they don't need to.

 

Offline Sandwich

  • Got Screen?
  • Administrator
  • 212
    • Minecraft
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Brainzipper
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
The number 1 problem of fast computers is that people forget to do this - because they don't need to.


I duno about it being The Number One Problem Out Thereā„¢, but I'd have to second you here - I hate bloatware!
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
  • Soul lives in the Mountains
    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14

What exactly is the performance hit from?  What causes it?  How can you say it's a performance hit when you have neither coded AI, physics, weapons (etc), ship class handling, etc to even test the basic performance?

Oh, and overhead is something that exists only to dismiss stuff.  you can pretty much code in anything nowadays - all you have to do is keep it tight and optimise the code accordingly.  The number 1 problem of fast computers is that people forget to do this - because they don't need to.


the performance hit is in the fact that you have to have more full AI objects, more full graphics objects, etc

aldo just because you haven't coded something yet doesn't mean you cannot make statements about it based off coding theory

and "overhead" is not something that exists only to dismiss stuff. It's actually there, and it slows down the game.

"you can pretty much code in anything nowadays" you always have been, it's getting performance that's the problem

The number 1 problem is people thinking code is infinitely optimizable, and forgetting that we're not targeting it to THEIR system
PCS2 2.0.3 | POF CS2 wiki page | Important PCS2 Threads | PCS2 Mantis

"The Mountains are calling, and I must go" - John Muir

 

Offline Nico

  • Venom
    Parlez-vous Model Magician?
  • 212
New Features for POF Version 3000 (for FSF) [FS2 = Version 2117]
Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
The number 1 problem is people thinking code is infinitely optimizable, and forgetting that we're not targeting it to THEIR system


No, indeed, to the sound of it we're targetting it to YOURS.
SCREW CANON!