[Scotty]

If that human is anywhere near average size, the Vasudan should be just about 2 meters even.

If the ~5m (rough guess) Shivan were to be at the center of a Dragon, There would still be ample room for everything.  Moving the cockpit forward is just a matter of rearranging things.

[Iranon]

Qent is correct about dual banks and refire rate, this means firing 4+2 equal guns have the same dps as firing just from the larger bank. As such, I like to carry something like the Maxim or Morning Star in the smaller bank. Shame that the Myrmidon can't mount the former.

I think the Myrmidon struggles a little with classification... being labeled a space superiority fighter isn't flattering when it would lose a dogfight against its granddad.
It has a lot of secondaries for a space superiority fighter (but is too sluggish), it would have a lot of primary firepower for an interceptor (but be a little slow) and it would be very speedy for an assault fighter (but also very frail).
On the other hand, 3 secondary banks have their uses. A large bank of Tornados, enough Tempests to finish knife fights and enough Trebuchets to declaw a Lilith is a rather sweet combination. Even if you just use 2 kinds of missiles, you get to choose between a 40/40 or a 60/20 split... not bad at all.

It has a great combination of speed and firepower but suffers in terms of survivability (handling, durability and profile are all mediocre... scoring well in none of these is rather exceptional).
In my opinion this makes it a great escort fighter/heavy interceptor when you worry less about your own survival than you worry about protecting your charges from assault fighters/bombers. In a furball, I'd rather fly almost anything else... including some bombers.

[ChronoReverse]

Qent is correct about dual banks and refire rate, this means firing 4+2 equal guns have the same dps as firing just from the larger bank.

This can't be true because in actual testing the empirical evidence isn't.

With true quad bank of Subach I took down 67% in 40 seconds (hmm, not quite 2x of a dual bank but more than a 2+2) while a 2+4 bank did 78% damage in 40 seconds.

[Qent]

The empirical evidence from my actual testing says that one quad bank of Subachs kills a Cain in 1 minute and 17 seconds on medium, and linked dual/quad banks kill it in 1 minute and 18 seconds. Could you maybe clarify how you performed the test?

[Iranon]

My empirical data matches that just fine.

Firing from one bank of Prometheus R, I count 128 shots per minute, firing from two banks I count 85.

The ratio works out as expected, what doesn't is the total volume (expected 133 from a single bank, and my counting/timing shouldn't be that far off).

[ChronoReverse]

I was shooting Argo transports with subachs in a Myrmidon.  I probably just made a mistake somewhere let me test again.

Huh, looks like I just made a mistake the first time around =/

[Spoon]

If that human is anywhere near average size, the Vasudan should be just about 2 meters even.

That vasudan is easily 220cm
Then again, the average male height can vary quite a bit. According to wikipedia, the average male is between 1.612m and 1.645m in India whereas the avg in the Netherlands is 1.808m-1.843m

[Timerlane]

Qent is correct about dual banks and refire rate, this means firing 4+2 equal guns have the same dps as firing just from the larger bank. As such, I like to carry something like the Maxim or Morning Star in the smaller bank. Shame that the Myrmidon can't mount the former.

While Maxim capability would be good, the extra pair of guns are far from dead weight. For me, the boost in momentary, snap-shot, firepower is, or at least can be, worth the investment.

If you're under fire yourself, the last thing you want to do is fly a in a predictable, steady pattern, which you must to maintain a tracking shot over time, and it's an even bigger deal when you're dealing with less-agile fighters. Better to unload your primary firepower 'up front' than count on drawing a semi-continuous bead on a maneuvering fighter until it dies.

It is nice to know that if you need to carry something else(like Akhetons in that one mission in Derelict where you need to disable the pirate Persei rather than kill them), you aren't 'really' reducing your offensive primary power, the way you would in a standard four-gun fighter.

[Trivial Psychic]

The question, though, is does a Shivan fit comfortably in there? If the below render is supposed to be to scale, then the Shivan's leg is the about the length of the Vasudan, which I'd guess is around 3m?(clearly taller than the Marine, even if he/she's not standing up straight). That Shivan looks fairly hunched over as it is, and still reaches over the Vasudan's head with its upper claws.

It looks possible, I guess(depending on how exactly a Shivan would sit/lie down/? in its cockpit), but pretty tight, considering engines, reactor, and other electronics have to fit in there, too.

We know from a Command Briefing from FS2, that not all Shivans are the same... in fact the briefing states "the Shivans vary greatly as a species", which means that the traditional Shivan we think of, from the FS1 Hallfight cutscene and a few others, is probably some kind of equivalent to the Marines sent to fight them.  Also, since the Shivans that we have seen appear to have mechanical parts included in them, we may conclude that they are some kind of genetically engineered life form.  If one references BSG, they have Cylon brains running their fighters, as specialized Cylons designed for that purpose.  Its quite likely that the Shivans have specifically engineered creatures to fly their fighters in a similar way, perhaps even engineered down to specific fighter types.  With this progression of logical deduction, we can conclude that the Dragons have a downsized Shivan intelligence or pilot to control the fighter, not one of the 5-limb creatures previously seen, and that's how it fits into the "cockpit".

Later!

[IronBeer]

Eh? Care to cite yourself? That's a fairly bold assertion.

[Fury]

Trivial Psychic, sorry but you're wrong. Nowhere in FS1 or FS2 is that stated as a fact, I can't remember any at the very least. You need to cite your souce.

Also, those who have original Silent Threat expansion disc, can open the disc contents and find several videos made by Volition. In one of those videos, a shivan jumps from a beaten up shivan fighter onto a vasudan fighter and effectively blows a hole onto the fighter, possibly killing the vasudan pilot.

From that video we have proof that shivan pilots are identical to those seen in the hall fight scene. Only their size may be different.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

...possibly killing the vasudan pilot...

I'd like to see a Vasudan survive slamming his Thoth into a Typhon at full speed.

About the Myrmidon, if it's not a Space Superiority fighter, what should it have been called? Medium Fighter? Space Superiority bomber?

[TopAce]

The Myrmidon is a more stereotypical space superiority fighter than the Ulysses. I have always treated the latter as an interceptor. I don't know how a fighter of its size and statistics could be called anything else.

[BlueFlames]

From that video we have proof...

Then is it canonical that first contact with the vasudans actually occurred in 1999, when one of them unpacked a box of headz in the Volition break room?  Point being, if the video didn't get used in-game, it's not really canon.  That's not to say I disagree with the point you're trying to make, but citing an invalid source doesn't help your case any more than an uncited source.

The line to which Trivial Psychic refers is the second stage of the command briefing in Mystery of the Trinity, though it says that the shivans "show considerable diversity as a species."  Given the context, Dr. Hargrove seems to be talking about the technology of the shivans, more than the shivans themselves.

About the Myrmidon, if it's not a Space Superiority fighter, what should it have been called? Medium Fighter? Space Superiority bomber?

Given the larger-than-average size, I can't help but wonder if it started life as a replacement for the Zeus that was rendered redundant by the Artemis.  The Helios/Harpoon typo makes a lot more sense as an oversight when they were revising the tables to hack the Myrmidon into a new role.

On the topic of size, though, it's really not all that much larger than it's counterparts.  The tails give it the illusion of taking up a lot of space but in the rear "half" of the ship, there's not a lot of anything to hit.  It might be easier to take the shields down, though, since they're roughly a sphere encompassing the ship.

[jr2]

About the Myrmidon, if it's not a Space Superiority fighter, what should it have been called? Medium Fighter? Space Superiority bomber?

I believe the word you're looking for is fighter-bomber.   ... Like the F-111 (that may not be an apt comparison but the FB-111 was a fighter-bomber).

[Commander Zane]

Multirole.

[Timerlane]

I have a mildly crazy in-universe theoryexcuse, that the Myrm was designed to be a sort of stop-gap anti-Lucifer measure, combined with a space superiority fighter project. Instead of relying on expensive, slow, vulnerable assault bombers to take out a Lucifer's reactors in subspace, make a new model of moderately-quick fighter capable of delivering a Harbinger/Helios class bomb or two, in a pinch. Combine/justify its funding with your new space superiority fighter project, so you can have these fighters already waiting wherever the next Lucifer shows up.

Note the oddly high hull rating(290), beyond most assault fighters. Hint that it's meant to operate in subspace without shields? In subspace, its six guns would give it the ability to brutally swat down almost any (shieldless)Shivan fighter, much as the old Herc Is did back in the day.

Do I think a Myrm really should be able to use Helios bombs, just like any other secondary, in the way it does? No, but perhaps it's relatively easy to add some kind of extended hull or bay, and/or perhaps they have cut-down bombs of Helios-class(perhaps with no propulsion system; inertia-only), and/or perhaps it's possible to mount them externally.

As far as being a space superiority fighter the rest of the time? I'd figure numerical superiority, the Myrm's heavy firepower, and superior GTVA training would let them crush most pirate and minor rebel groups with ease. After the HoL's demise, it probably wasn't until the NTF rebellion that the GTVA had to put down a fighting force of truly comparable strength.

[Thaeris]

About the Myrmidon, if it's not a Space Superiority fighter, what should it have been called? Medium Fighter? Space Superiority bomber?

I believe the word you're looking for is fighter-bomber.   ... Like the F-111 (that may not be an apt comparison but the FB-111 was a fighter-bomber).

This is another one of those wired designations. Now, I love the '111, but just because it could carry an M61 pod in its weapons bay and tote a few AIM-9s if necessary by no means made it a fighter plane. The F-111 was an out-and-out attack bomber/intredictor. You'd be crazy if you wanted to do actual fighter-like stuff with the plane, but I suppose you could... Now, in the defene of the "F" designation, the plane did/does fly a rather agressive attack profile if necessary.

And the FB-111 was further from a fighter than the normal '111s! It was put into service to replace the B-58 Hustler in the nuclear strike role, actually...

Given all of this information, yes, the Myrm is more of a fighter-bomber (kind of like the Herc 2, in a way...) than a superiority craft. However, Myrms loaded to the teeth with Hornets/Tornadoes with fast guns (the Balor in BP is best on the Myrm  ) make for some of the best "heavy superiority" fighters you've ever seen...

[ChronoReverse]

One thing to note about the Myrmidon is that it is NOT a plane for an elite pilot.  In the hands of the average, it's more than sufficient because they're not able to bring out the full maneuverability of their rides anyway.  The greater firepower provided as well as versatility of payload (minus the Harpoon although the Tornado is just about as competent in single fire) makes it nearly as useful compared to stuff like the cutting edge Perseus and bleeding edge Erinyes.  That is to say, wingmen flying Perseus and Erinyes drop like flies just as easily.

Perhaps it's just a mass production craft that simply works "good enough" with a few perks of its own.

[Trivial Psychic]

The line to which Trivial Psychic refers is the second stage of the command briefing in Mystery of the Trinity, though it says that the shivans "show considerable diversity as a species."  Given the context, Dr. Hargrove seems to be talking about the technology of the shivans, more than the shivans themselves.

Full Quote:

"The subspace portal is unlike any Shivan construction we have yet encountered. Though Shivans demonstrate considerable diversity as a species, all Shivan technology possesses certain distinctive properties. None is present in the subspace device, which means we must look elsewhere for the portal's origin. We do know that the device is very, very old, on the order of several thousand years."

Somehow, I think that when someone uses the word "species", they're talking about the life forms as opposed to their technology, and the second part of that phrase specifically mentions that the "technology" all have things in common.  So, quick summary of this statement: Shivan life forms... not all the same, Shivan technology... all the same.  Based on the stated life form differences, and the visual indications of mechanical components integrated into the Shivans themselves, (which obviously isn't something that found its way into the species naturally), I conclude that the Shivans are genetically engineered, and since the only aspect of Shivan vessels we've been seeing is warships (and support craft), its natural to assume that these Shivans are soldiers of a sort.  Designing a single Shivan soldier for all combat roles might seem a good idea in terms of flexibility and mass production, but many traits that you might want to have in a close-quarters combat soldier, aren't necessarily the same ones you'd want for a fighter pilot.  Its only only natural to assume type specialization.