Author Topic: I'm very surprised...  (Read 9082 times)

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Offline Dilmah G

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Re: I'm very surprised...
can i ask why is it so important to have a realistic flight model?
It'd be kinda cool.

 

Offline Droid803

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Re: I'm very surprised...
can i ask why is it so important to have a realistic flight model?
Because if you don't, then any underwater mission is just spaceflight in blue space.

and FS is an arcade shooter in space and is one of many games that prove "realism" isn't necessary to be fun.  OK so it would be FS with blue backgrounds, guess what if the story and the missions are executed well it will be a far superior mod to one with an atmospheric/aquatic modeling system and only mediocre story/mission design.  yes these features would be cool, yes they would greatly expand on the engines applications, yes i would like to see them but frankly they are a nicety not a requirement

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Offline Quanto

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Re: I'm very surprised...
Realism is the cancer that is killing games.
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Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: I'm very surprised...
Realism is the cancer that is killing games.
QFT.
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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Offline Thaeris

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Re: I'm very surprised...
You people are whimps! Realism done right is the best stuff out there!
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: I'm very surprised...
You people are whimps! Realism done right is the best stuff out there!

Yes. Because quite often, fact is stranger than fiction.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline chief1983

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Re: I'm very surprised...
If you think about it, FS is closer to underwater mechanics than it is to space mechanics.  In space, you have no restistance, so FS completely failes its Newtonian check.  But underwater, you would have to keep applying thrust to move at a constant velocity, and stopping would cause to you stop proceeding forward due to resistance over time.  You could abstract the controls to the point that you don't have to worry about buoyancy, even with present day technology.  You would simply use your elevators and rudders to move through the water, and it'd be easier to model than a flight sim because you don't even hardly have to worry about gravity.  Face it, FreeSpace is closest to modeling underwater physics already than it ever was to space or flight.  The same thrusters tech that's used in FS now could be used for attitude adjustments as well, eliminating the need for the wings possibly altogether.  Then you just need some weapons that make sense underwater...
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Offline Nuke

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Re: I'm very surprised...
Realism is the cancer that is killing games.
QFT.

tell that to fans of flight sims and racing games.
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Offline chief1983

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Re: I'm very surprised...
Sims aren't exactly games a lot of the time :P

The hardest of the hard tend to forego any classical game elements altogether in favor of simply offering you missions to play and perhaps a dynamic simulated campaign.
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Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays

  

Offline Quanto

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Re: I'm very surprised...
Realism is the cancer that is killing games.
QFT.

tell that to fans of flight sims and racing games.
Speaking as a lover of flight combat games and racing games, the best ones are the ones that prioritizes simple gameplay and predictable mechanics over hard simulation.
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Offline Aardwolf

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Re: I'm very surprised...
Realism is the cancer that is killing games.

HATE HATE HATE HATE.  :mad:

If you need me, you can find me sobbing in the corner with my dream-game.

 

Offline Mongoose

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Re: I'm very surprised...
Mongoose, I believe you mean the game "Tigershark".
Yeah, I think that was it.  I'm assuming it wasn't very popular, though, as there isn't even a Wiki page for it. :p

 

Offline Dilmah G

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Re: I'm very surprised...
Realism is the cancer that is killing games.
QFT.
You all must suck very, very, hard at actually flying, driving, and thinking like you're actually 'in the game'.

 

Offline Quanto

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Re: I'm very surprised...
The challenge or "thrill" you get from the game shouldn't have to come from the task of controlling the vehicle you are using, but rather from the level design or game balance.

When the controls are simple and predictable, immersion isn't broken so long as everything in the game is consistent. Realism has little to do with immersion. Oftentimes, when I think of true simulation games, I think of games that were very difficult to control, and often had awkward UI's and keyboard layouts, and the action seen on screen was more often than not, sub-par. To put it simply, the "true simulations" did little to simulate the feeling of actually being in an airplane, on a sub, or in a racecar.
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Offline Dilmah G

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Re: I'm very surprised...
Well then it's ****ty game designers rather than realism that's killing these games then, huh?

 

Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: I'm very surprised...
Have you ever even played games like, say, Grand Prix 2, RFactor or IL-2 series?

The vehicles are part of "level design" and "game balance" in simulators. And the challenge and thrill of playing IL-2 comes from shooting other pilots down and avoiding the same fate. Some enjoy ground attacks, but I prefer to fly against human opponents. It is a test of skill in controlling your airplane, making it do what you want it to do. Tricking your opponent into doing mistakes, while avoiding them yourself.

With a complex simulation underlying in the game world, there are millions of options you can do. If you have a working knowledge of flying in reality, it's easier to put in use in a simulation than a more arcade-y game. If you don't have a working knowledge of aviation, you can even get one from the game. And by that I mean basic understanding of how flight dynamics works.

The controls might be complex but, in reality, not any more than FreeSpace with its gazillion wingman and targeting commands. Basic fighter flying doesn't involve the more sophisticated features like level bombing target sight data inputs. But they're there in case you want to try your hand at them.

And I have to say there IS something rather nice about dropping 1000 kg bombs from 3000 metres dead on through the enemy carrier flight deck... I don't do it often because the climb to altitude and the flight to target and back takes simply too long - I prefer fighter action. But sometimes it's a nice change of pace, especially if you have wingmen on TeamSpeak flying bomber formation or escort fighters.

To me, realism has everything to do with immersion - assuming the game is supposed to be about real events, places or vehicles. Inaccuracies in physics like stupidly simplified flight model makes the game unplayable for me, with no real challenge on that department, and thus most likely boring. Part of the excitement in flying airplanes in IL-2 is how hard it can be and how much concentration it takes to just land some of the airplanes, nevermind lining up for a shot, hitting people while diving at 600 km/h, avoiding crashing into them, avoid overshooting them, avoid stalling, avoid ripping your wings off from excess speed or g-forces, avoid blackout, and most importantly, avoid letting people get into advantageous position for them.

It might seem like a lot of things to avoid, but it all blends into one continuity that makes the game (or simulation) fun, challenging and difficult to master.

I love it. I don't expect you to share my sentiment, but please don't drop statements like "realism is the cancer that is killing games" since it's simply false. Or do you consider abstract games like PacMan or Tetris the pinnacle of gaming?
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Offline Spoon

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Re: I'm very surprised...
I'm not a fan of realistic games (or simulator games for that matter) either and I often feel that a lot of new games could be better if they didn't tried to follow the rules of the real world so strictly. Of course, the whole point of a simulator game is that they do exactly that.  :p
I like how Herra instantly gets his panties in a bunch though  :lol:
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Offline Quanto

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Re: I'm very surprised...
****ty game designers is part of it, but its my personal opinion that ****ty Game design is at least partly a result on a game designer spending a better part of their development cycle creating an accurate physics and control scheme (or photorealistic graphics) rather than good level design, fine tuned game balance or an immersive story.

Realism in a game based on a historical time period (like IL-2) is fine.
However, when you start mixing realism with fantasy, things often go awry in the worst ways imaginable. And it isn't entirely the fault of the designers. Most development companies work to a tight schedule and do not have luxury of putting equal effort into all aspects of a game. It's my firm unwavering belief that when you are working on a game based on science fiction rather than science fact, it is more important to work on ease of play and story immersion, than a true-to-life physics model. (However, a physics model that at least makes sense to the game's universe is equally important, but mathematical perfection is not something they should be expected to strive for.)
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Offline Herra Tohtori

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Re: I'm very surprised...
I like how Herra instantly gets his panties in a bunch though  :lol:


Ah yes, panties. The immortal group of undergarments allegedly waiting for every opportunity to get in a bunch. We have dismissed that claim.
There are three things that last forever: Abort, Retry, Fail - and the greatest of these is Fail.

 

Offline Nuke

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Re: I'm very surprised...
whats really killing games is a lack of fresh ideas. the same molds are being used to cast new games. it really has nothing to do with the realism of game physics. you might have good graphics and no real gameplay, or you can have gameplay but horrible input code, you could have real physics and dry content. just because youre not into simulation (and its no different from not being into rpgs,  fpses, or rtses) doesnt mean that simulation is killing games. thats like saying mmorpgs are killing games (they are of course :D ).
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