[Rodo]

That's the bad thing about being an ambassador.

364 days of the year you are scratching your balls.

the other remaining day you are in the middle of a firefight against fissshy aliens.

I'm sold. Where should I sign up?

If only I knew that...

[bigchunk1]

I think the Vasudans would win, not because of military or numbers but for political reasons. The PVN strikes me as much more unified and committed than the GTA. Terrans, as we know are quite dubious and are willing to turn on one another quite easily. In Fs1 McCarthy would have given the avenger project to the Vasudans if Alpha 1 didn't get in the way. I think betrayals such as these hinder the Terrans long term, and perhaps the strain of war would test the foundations of the Terran alliance.

Also a lot of back and fourth on this thread about which warship would win Typhon or Orion. I don't think it matters. You add one bomber into the mix and it changes everything. I don't think Fs1 is a warship fight. I always thought of it as a series of carrier duels and bomber/fighter sorties. The vast majority of the fighting in the Terran-Vasudan war is done by pilots in small ships. Destroyers at the time just acted like mobile fleet hubs launching wings of fighters at enemy targets (or at least that would have been a more sensable tactic).

 

[Woolie Wool]

What evidence is there that there were no Vasudan defectors or double agents, especially since one of the themes of the FS universe is that Terrans and Vasudans are much more alike than either would care to admit.

[bigchunk1]

What evidence is there that there were no Vasudan defectors or double agents

Not saying Vasudans are all obedient robots or anything, only that Terrans give me the impression of being more apt to betray one another.

I consider the HOL a product of religious conviction so I am discounting that.

The NTF, Bosch and the Polaris uprising. Not to mention the GTI

The nature of special operations command.

McCarthy as I mentioned before.

"your lack of trust is typical Terran" not deductive evidence, but it does drive a point.

one of the themes of the FS universe is that Terrans and Vasudans are much more alike than either would care to admit.

If they truly are mirror races than this thread has reached a conclusion. Surely at some point however, hairs can be split.

[Woolie Wool]

I consider the HOL a product of religious conviction so I am discounting that.

In the end there's no real difference. Religious fanaticism is just one of many reasons why someone might betray their country. The HOL were traitors to the PVE regardless of the nature of their beliefs. Treason is treason.

[bigchunk1]

In the end there's no real difference. Religious fanaticism is just one of many reasons why someone might betray their country. The HOL were traitors to the PVE regardless of the nature of their beliefs. Treason is treason.

The reason why I say that is because I consider a religious society a loyal society. I consider the HOL 'loyal' to their prophecy over their government. Without the intervention by the Shivans their prophecy would not have come 'true' and they would not have felt compelled to aid the Shivans. Even though there is secession involved, it is out of obedience for a higher power. One could argue that the PVE strayed from their religious prophecy by not aiding the Shivans with the HOL. So, I don't consider the HOL Rebellion an indication that Vasudan culture invites betrail as much as Terran culture. Even given the fact that it resulted in a fragmentation of the Vasudan military. I still believe the Vasudan political structure in the Terran-Vasudan war would have been more resilient had the Shivans not invaded Vasudan systems. 




 

[Woolie Wool]

Your argument makes no sense. Religion is one of the core components of culture; the HOL's religion is an extreme example of something likely held by billions of Vasudans, much like Al-Qaeda is an extreme and violent offshoot of a very widespread religion.

Bosch, McCarthy, the GTI, etc. were all "loyal" to their own causes. The NTF essentially was a religion with Bosch as a messiah figure. People like Admiral Koth died for it with all the zeal and conviction of an Islamic terrorist. Just because you believe in your cause doesn't mean you aren't committing treason when your cause impels you to rise against your own government. From what we know the Vasudan parliament was extremely corrupt; this would not have happened if Vasudans were naturally predisposed to being obedient servants of their laws and leadership. Corruption also goes hand in hand with betrayal; various people stabbing political or financial opponents in the back, people ignoring laws and protocols in exchange for bribes. Vasudans probably betray each other all the time, although Vasudan cultural secretiveness would make them more hush-hush about it.

[Bob-san]

What evidence is there that there were no Vasudan defectors or double agents, especially since one of the themes of the FS universe is that Terrans and Vasudans are much more alike than either would care to admit.

My thought is, if either race were to glass a planet, there would be defection in droves. For example, if the Terrans nuked Vasuda, many Terrans would defect and bring a lot of technology to the Vasudans. At the same time, the Vasudans would band together and any defections from them would abruptly stop. So while we may have the technology and potential to destroy the surface of entire planets, what's the chances we'd actually stoop to using it?

[SpardaSon21]

Wiki page for Vasudans says that the Vasudan Parliament was a corrupt, treacherous, and arrogant institution, which makes it no different from any other legislative body we've had here on Earth.

If it looked like the end for the PVE, I think a few Zod MP's would have jumped ship to the winning side, more depending on how imminent the destruction was.

[Woolie Wool]

What evidence is there that there were no Vasudan defectors or double agents, especially since one of the themes of the FS universe is that Terrans and Vasudans are much more alike than either would care to admit.

My thought is, if either race were to glass a planet, there would be defection in droves. For example, if the Terrans nuked Vasuda, many Terrans would defect and bring a lot of technology to the Vasudans. At the same time, the Vasudans would band together and any defections from them would abruptly stop. So while we may have the technology and potential to destroy the surface of entire planets, what's the chances we'd actually stoop to using it?

What makes you think the majority of Terrans in 2335 give a rat's ass about Vasudans, or vice versa? The PVFr Bast tech description shows that the GTVA has no problem with the wholesale massacre of Vasudan civilians in unarmed shipping vessels. After fighting a war with an enemy for 14 years, hating them becomes natural and inevitable. The fact that Vasudans are not human makes hatred even easier. This sort of stuff happened all the time in human-human conflicts (see: conquistadors, Tamerlane, the Bible's description of ancient Middle Eastern campaigns, the sack of Carthage in the last Punic War, the sack of Jerusalem in the crusades (the Pope gave the order "kill them all; God will know his own", the origin of the phrase "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out"), the Scramble for Africa, the Indian Wars, the Rape of Nanking, the Holocaust, the My Lai Massacre, the Darfur genocide, the Kosovo ethnic cleansing, the Belgian Congo...), it would be even more likely in a human-alien conflict.

The average human in 2335 would probably consider the mass murder of Vasuda Prime's population a glorious victory. Humans are not naturally tolerant and compassionate to people outside the "in-group", and encouraging people to feel any trace of empathy for the Vasudans would be against the GTA's strategic interests, while encouraging them to hate Vasudans would further their long-term goals.

The idea of civilians being a protected class of innocents is an idea only around 200 years old that was created in a specific cultural and sociological milieu with a specific sort of enemy in mind (the laws and customs of war have been frequently ignored by states that nominally recognized them when fighting an enemy they really hated--the Germans in WWII for instance, extended Geneva/Hague Convention protections to enemies on the Western Front, where white Western Europeans more or less conforming to "master race" specifications lived, but not the Eastern Front, where a variety of "life unworthy of life" ethnic groups lived). Widespread murder and pillage up to and including genocide is the rule in warfare, not the exception.

[GoulMeister]

i thought the whole reason McCarthy was giving the avenger to the vasudans was because he knew the shivans were coming and wanted them to ally with the GTA to fight the common foe

[bigchunk1]

Wiki page for Vasudans says that the Vasudan Parliament was a corrupt, treacherous, and arrogant institution, which makes it no different from any other legislative body we've had here on Earth.

If it looked like the end for the PVE, I think a few Zod MP's would have jumped ship to the winning side, more depending on how imminent the destruction was.

Allow me to step back. Yeah, in light of learning new information about the PVE I find their political unity a bit more questionable than I had initially known from the game. Perhaps political stability is equivalent or debatably one sided towards Terrans or Vasudans.

Your argument makes no sense.

 My argument about a religious rebellion vs. a standard economic/political rebellion I feel needs to be explained. (Bear with me because this analysis might go a little far for a game.) Let me just say right now I am an agnostic borderline atheist so you know that this is not coming from some deep seeded bias. Let’s too set aside the Religious war = Extremist terrorism tone because I think it misses the point. Most religions teach a philosophy or a way of life that the followers must adhere to in order to be good subjects and pursue whatever spiritual goals are described in their religion. It has been my experience that, even though interpretations differ, followers of a religious belief generally respect some system of law. Not necessarily government law but some kind of rule set. E.g. ‘to get into the afterlife you must do this and this’ Because religious followers are more acclimated to a world bound by rules, I feel this makes them generally more loyal subjects in a Government of Law. I am assuming that the PVE uses law to govern due to GTVA laws that were passed such as BETAC.

That said, I get the impression that, for Terrans in the futuristic Freespace universe, religion (faith in unproven phenomena) is either not important or non-existent. Between fs1 Fs1: ST and Fs2 Terran religious belief has never been addressed. I am almost positive of this fact, but as I have proven earlier today I can be wrong about things. I conclude that the cliché ‘science is their god’ Is in effect for the Terran way of life. They have reached into the heavens and in the absence of finding anything divine they have created their own ambitions and made their own rules. Now, I would argue that someone who has taken this belief is very difficult to demand loyalty from, because that person understands a universe without limits and to some extent without rules.

So with this automatic distinction in my head I autonomously submitted a poorly explained post. Hopefully you will at least see that this argument makes some kind of sense. Whether you agree with it or not.         

[-Norbert-]

i thought the whole reason McCarthy was giving the avenger to the vasudans was because he knew the shivans were coming and wanted them to ally with the GTA to fight the common foe

While it isn't said outright, his comments in the mission where you capture him very heavily hint that this is the case.

[QuantumDelta]

I object to the religion = loyal/moral/etc and non-religion = not bull****.

[Spoon]

I object to the religion = loyal/moral/etc and non-religion = not bull****.

Of course you would, you're an atheist 
I for one think its quite accurate

[TrashMan]

Since when does religion not exist in FS2? Just because nobody is yelling Allah/Jahoweh/God/Jeesus/Budha/whatever every 5 seconds, doesn't means that there is no religion.

[Spoon]

Since when does religion not exist in FS2? Just because nobody is yelling Allah/Jahoweh/God/Jeesus/Budha/whatever every 5 seconds, doesn't means that there is no religion.

Remember the shivan wing names in FS1? 

[Lucika]

Remember the shivan wing names in FS1? 

So astrologists became a major religious factor for FS2. I see everything now ;)

[bigchunk1]

I object to the religion = loyal/moral/etc and non-religion = not bull****.

Whoa, not saying anything about moral. Just because you believe in something spiritual does not make you a well thought or considerate person, I agree. I am saying that a person who is religious more easily follows rules. If you wanted to look it from a cynical perspective, a religious person is more easily ‘manipulated’ into being a follower of some cause, because they follow the  ‘requirement, struggle, reward’ mentality. Therefore, I think it is useful to have a religious population when fighting a war.

Also I agree that religion is not a requirement for loyalty, but it is a good indication of willingness to follow under drastic circumstances.

Since when does religion not exist in FS2? Just because nobody is yelling Allah/Jahoweh/God/Jeesus/Budha/whatever every 5 seconds, doesn't means that there is no religion.

Right, but that does not mean that religion exists for the Terrans either. I am just saying what my impression is as I have never heard it mentioned once in all 3 cannon campaigns. Nothing I can think of demands that Terrans are without religion, but given the tone of even the most zealous leaders such as Bosch, It makes sense to me that they are not religious. I would think he would have thrown in a ‘amen’ or ‘creator forgive me’ somewhere in those monologues. Again, not deductive just a general sense.   

[BengalTiger]

Here's proof that at least some Terran pilots were religious:

Oh God, they're following me....

And as for the other points in the thread, here are my opinions:
1. Shields must have been known earlier, because the MX-50 is a popular weapon, well after it's "Early experiments " phase, in which it was tested against them.
2. The Shivans were most likely known to the GTA, they had no other reason to test weapons against shields than the Shivans' shielded ships.
3. The Hades was probably under construction for a decade or so, and the Shivan weapons were probably added when it was nearly completed. It may have been a project to stop the Shivans and their Lucifer in the first place, rather than the Vasudans, but arrived too late.