[Colonol Dekker]

Tetris is fun.

[MatthTheGeek]

Tetris being fun doesn't make it any less of an empty shell.

[Aesaar]

We'll have to agree to disagree on that point. I strongly believe that storytelling is the primary component of a game. Otherwise you only have an empty shell.

I completely agree.

[General Battuta]

I agree too, but I think that storytelling has to occur through mechanisms other than simply reading exposition and dialogue - it has to be embedded in the visuals, the story, the level design, the very gameplay actions themselves.

This actually brings me back around to something interesting about SF-Junky's feedback. The very reason we wanted to design Act 3 the way we did was because of storytelling.

Acts 1 and 2 of War in Heaven succeeded in part because they established a new set of rules for warfare in FreeSpace - subspace speed chess, the 'fleet in being', the idea of this whole big strategic picture that made each mission make sense. You knew why the GTVA didn't just jump all their ships right to Earth. You knew why those bombers jumped in at 4 kilometers instead of 1. It was a set of rules to explain away the inconsistencies and nonsense of FreeSpace strategy and tactics.

But those rules were usually window dressing to help the mission work. In Act 3 we wanted to let the player access those rules on the gameplay level. Now you would be the one calling in ships from off screen, deciding how many could be risked. Now you would carry out the

Spoiler:

surprise assassination mid-dialogue.

Ken wouldn't come to you to give you story; you would go to him and take it from him.

Act 3 is all about the player seizing control. That control turns out to be pretty overwhelming for a lot of players - but hopefully it at least makes sense why we did it.

[MatthTheGeek]

but I think that storytelling has to occur through mechanisms other than simply reading exposition and dialogue - it has to be embedded in the visuals, the story, the level design, the very gameplay actions themselves.

And I believe those are only icing on the cake. Storytelling is core, whether it's given to you "smoothly" or not. Mass Effect's Codex doesn't prevent you to enjoy the complexity of its universe, for example.

[crizza]

No spoiler tags, but this post concerns Her finest hour.
I managed the mission and, geeze, a good one.
But: I ordered the assault to begin while the two Deimos Corvettes where still in the field, but I had achieved every goal apart from the Carthage, so I ordered my forces in, disabled the ship and ordered my "fleet" to jump out.
Tip: You should allow the gunships to jump out too.
What is with "Declare Rearm"? Have I missed something?
But the biggest point: I realy wanted to avoid casualties, so as soon as the Carthage was disabled, I ordered my ships to jump out and I'm sure I don't lost "thirty spaceframes" like the debriefing told me...

[DrewToby]

Act 3 is all about the player seizing control. That control turns out to be pretty overwhelming for a lot of players - but hopefully it at least makes sense why we did it.

Ultimately this is my favorite aspect of Act 3. Acts 1 and 2 evoked an incredible, borderline nihilist, powerlessness on behalf of the player. You could fly as sharply as possible, but that wasn't going to save your squad in the end. R1 took the traditional Freespace formula to the extreme. But now Act 3 completely subverts that, and the player takes on the roll of command. I joined only the battles I had to, and otherwise sat on the edges and ordered my squads around. The feeling of power and control was beautifully crafted, particularly after the total reaming the player goes through during most of R1. It's clear how well you guys understood this, especially with the Carthage. I don't think I've had a single more satisfying mission in FreeSpace -- except killing the Lucifer in AoA, maybe.

That said, I do agree that the feature creep got distracting, particularly when certain things didn't line up. Like Crizza, I don't know what the 'declare rearm' command does in "Her Finest Hour," and I also had no idea you could call up the Toutatis -- though I swear I never had the option at all, so perhaps I bugged it somehow. Same with the Tower Defense mission, I couldn't place repair or sensor towers. I was playing on Easy, so if the towers are difficulty-restricted, that would explain things.

As a proof of concept I think R2 did amazingly well. But that's also what it often felt like; it reminded me a lot of Assassin's Creed 1. A stunning technical display in an amazing world that, along the line, decided to try too much at once and turned shallow, rather than refining itself to a unified and polished experience. That said, BP is still my favorite mod and the only reason I have FreeSpace still installed -- and I love Assassin's Creed too, so the constant references to it were delighting.

And the music is absolutely phenomenal. That dreamscape song, I think that's my new study music.

[Spoon]

You are all using the term 'Feature creep' wrong.

[knossosfs2]

Okay, I've got a problem in the mission after Her Finest Hour (don't remember the name and don't want to spoil it by giving a description). I was able to play it yesterday, but it took forever to load. Today, it took a long time to load, but I never got to the briefing screen because it crashed and said "Antipodes has stopped working." I've attached a debug log.

[attachment deleted by a basterd]

[Suongadon]

Like Crizza, I don't know what the 'declare rearm' command does in "Her Finest Hour," and I also had no idea you could call up the Toutatis -- though I swear I never had the option at all, so perhaps I bugged it somehow.

I think 'declare rearm' tells your wingmen to go for repairs, and the Toutatis is only an option if one of the artillery frigates has to withdraw.

[General Battuta]

'Declare rearm' is a bad feature that should've been cut.

[Ryuseiken]

Same with the Tower Defense mission, I couldn't place repair or sensor towers. I was playing on Easy, so if the towers are difficulty-restricted, that would explain things.

The sensor/repair modules are on the second tab during that mission. You use the Up/Down arrows to select the type of turret, and Left/Right arrows to switch between the weapons tab (gauss, flak, missile) and the support tab (sensors, repair drone).

[CKid]

So I just in Dreamscape and...

Spoiler:

I just found the "Fire To ROCK OUT!" Super Cool! Just had to hop on the forums to say that.

[Venicius]

Hoping my computer can handle this release...but this is what I got after downloading today.

Code: [Select]

IBX: Safety Check Failure!  The file doesn't contain enough data, deleting 'corvette3t-01.bx'

ntdll.dll! KiFastSystemCallRet
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObjectEx + 67 bytes
kernel32.dll! WaitForSingleObject + 18 bytes
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
fs2_open_3_6_17_DEBUG_SSE2_BP.exe! <no symbol>
kernel32.dll! BaseThreadInitThunk + 18 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 239 bytes
ntdll.dll! RtlInitializeExceptionChain + 194 bytes


[General Battuta]

Why are you running a debug build?

[QuakeIV]

Spoilers (I wouldn't want to accidentally read this four days ago)

To make a more rational less rant-like analysis of the Carthage mission:

I'll at some point be trying those tips of battutas, but how was I supposed to know to do that?  Its not like I had any kind of education on how to command a major fleet action in that canon.  I have commanded successful fleet battles in other games before (in first person no less, with much worse UI) but I somewhat knew what I was doing there.  In the Carthage mission I felt like I was thrown into the cockpit of an F-16 mid-flight without any explanation or training and told to 'destroy the russian aircraft carrier and RTB' or something.  I could probably find the stick and rotate the craft a bit before I inevitably screwed up and died, but that isn't exactly ideal.  If the game had at least given me some practice or something that would have been a huge help.  As it was things more or less scaled up as so;

>command a squad with people telling you what to do
>operate a ship with a basic plan given to you and with freaking nuclear missiles at your direct disposal
>3RD FLEET JRF ATTACKING NEPTUNE WORK IT OUT PILOT YOU ARE IN COMMAND NOW

Anyhow, to add a bit of variety to this post I had a HUGE amount of fun in the GEF asteroid mission, good grief that was awesome.

>enter asteroid
>destroy asteroid subspace drive
>asteroid will apparently still be able to jump
>call in transports on my way out
>they die before i get out of the asteroid
>
>immediate 180, nuke reactor
>flee
>asteroid colony explodes in nuclear fire
>GEF destroyer is still intact
>destroy destroyer in epic battle
>fyeah.jpg

e: modified asteroid mission description

[General Battuta]

Spoilers (I wouldn't want to accidentally read this four days ago)

To make a more rational less rant-like analysis of the Carthage mission:

I'll at some point be trying those tips of battutas, but how was I supposed to know to do that?

I'm worried about a bug here - are you guys not seeing the little gauge right above your main flight controller that gives you tips on what would be a good next step?

[FIZ]

I think sort of a problem with it is it would show up while I'm halfway through doing something else.

[QuakeIV]

Basically yeah.  That or it was too vague when I was in sync with it.  For instance 'protect the serenity' or whatever isn't the same as 'protect serenity from bombers (that you probably didnt notice at this range)'.

e: After I realized they were there I still never figured out they were dealing the majority of the damage.

e2: vagueness partially removed

[Dark Hunter]

Well, I just finished it. Maybe I'm just suited to this style of play because I didn't find any of the missions too tricky (except "Her Finest Hour", but that was due to me being an idiot and not due to mission design). Each mission was new and mostly well-designed (the tower defense mission was kind of weak and the turrets didn't activate half the time (YES I PRESSED "2"!)).

The story is the strong point here, and on that note: EXCELLENT! I am loving this, keep it up! I'm going to have to replay that final mission a number of times to properly absorb all the Mind Screw but it was a hell of a ride!

If I were to offer any criticism, it goes along the "too many features" line we've seen repeated. As I said, I didn't find things too tricky, but I did have to work to keep up with all the OPTIONS! that are presented. So my suggestion would be to strike a balance between this and the original WiH release. These new missions were cool, but give us some good old "kill stuff straightforwardly" missions in between them. I realize that approach doesn't really fit with the story of this Act, but it is my suggestion for Acts 4 and 5.

On the whole, excellent work, and I'm looking forward to seeing what you guys have in store next.

One last question: is War in Heaven going to complete the Blue Planet storyline or is there a "Blue Planet 3" coming once Act 5 is done?