[Droid803]

Any strategy banking on the Shivans being nice and going "Oh hey you've been good, so we're not going to kill you all! ^_^" doesn't feel much like a strategy. I mean what, is this a Disney movie? Everyone hold hands and sing, and the Shivans will be your friend? What fairy tale world are you living in?

We prove we are worthy of surviving by giving them one hell of a fight! (and trying to survive as long as possible while...strategically advancing in the other direction).

[MatthTheGeek]

Again and again and again, you always forget the Vishnans in all this...

[Javito1986]

The destroyers only came for us to punish us for our sins and arrogance! Ubuntu is the only true path for humanity's survival!


........ Or something  

I'm going to rant about how I view the UEF and GTVA. Feel free to shoot me down:

Spoiler:

In all seriousness, I do think the theme of Blue Planet is that emphasis on militarization will ultimately destroy you. Imperialism and expansionist policy that drove the Ancients to conquer neighboring civilizations and the Terrans & Vasudans to war COULD POSSIBLY BE what provoked the Shivans into "restoring balance". In that sense, you can view the Shivans (both in BP and in FS canon) as being largely symbolic. The Terrans in particular after the Great War seemed to withdraw into themselves, they only learned to be CONSTANTLY vigilant FOREVER... and yet the Second Incursion was essentially caused yet again by arrogance and a distinct lack of humility for the cosmos.

It's true that Ubuntu philosophy needed isolation in order to prosper, but that can be taken as further argument against expansionism I would say. The Terrans (and the Vasudans to a slightly lesser degree) prior to the Great War were heading in the exact OPPOSITE direction of "enlightenment", motivated by desire (basically greed) to branch out and take more and more space for themselves (like the Ancients). This activity disrupts the balance, which the Vishnans and Shivans uphold.

It says a lot I think that only after being FORCED to stay put and make do with what they have did the Terrans in BP canon achieve their enlightenment and become the favored candidates for whatever roles the Vishnans/Shivans reserve for them (taking this from the line 'They are not the ones we seek' from AoA, when the Vishnans talk to the Shivans in reference to the GTVA). Also I don't think it's coincidental that there are two hugely nagari sensitives in the story (Bei and Laporte, a male and a female to communicate with the masculine Vishnans and feminine Shivans respectively) who communicate with the Vishnans and Shivans.

It's been said a lot but it's worth repeating and in caps: THE SHIVANS CANNOT BE DEFEATED MILITARILY. So yes, the GTVA is militarily stronger but that isn't necessarily a strength; in this context it's actually a weakness and a repetition of the same old mistakes.

Before anyone says anything about it, that isn't to say we should hunker down and become pacifists and allow everyone to walk all over us. Clearly the UEF isn't weak and is quite capable of holding its own. I think the difference is in the mindset and ideology. The UEF is doing something different than the GTVA, something which evidently the Shivans/Vishnans prefer and I think it has to do with eliminating greed and materialism and all the baggage that comes with them (i.e. the fear/paranoia that led the GTVA to militarize so heavily).

[Aardwolf]

Any strategy banking on the Shivans being nice and going "Oh hey you've been good, so we're not going to kill you all! ^_^" doesn't feel much like a strategy. I mean what, is this a Disney movie? Everyone hold hands and sing, and the Shivans will be your friend? What fairy tale world are you living in?

We prove we are worthy of surviving by giving them one hell of a fight! (and trying to survive as long as possible while...strategically advancing in the other direction).

Were you sleeping through "Universal Truth"? The Shivans seek to destroy us because we destroy. They're not going to kick our asses because of the losses either or both sides incurred in the war for Sol, they're going to kick our asses for causing each other these losses.

...although the whole "choose a side" thing introduced in WiH makes it a bit more complicated.

[Evangelist]

That wouldn't make sense in context with Bosch though.  The GTVA forms in the context of co-operatione and harmony, in response to the Lucifier and the Shivans.  Bosch gets ideas about the Shivans, secedes, starts demanding systems, massacring civilians and sending people to die at GTVA beam cannons.  He then starts a full scale rebellion including remnants of the GTVI and builds ETAK.  Shivans wander in from Gamma Draconis, annihililate a GTVA cruiser, but when the guy who actually started all the trouble and strife is in their hands, they board his ship, kill all of his crew EXCEPT him and wander off.

They then commit to a full scale assault on the GTVA, wiping out their nebular prescence and stop to blow up the Capella star, after which they either withdraw or vanish.

The Shivans aren't playing nice anymore if they ever were.  If they turn up, the only in-character option for them is to begin a full scale assault on both UEF and GTVA territory, probably drawn by whatever experiment the Elders are cooking up.  Which may turn out to be the entire reason the GTVA is attacking in the first place.  Like I said, I still feel the GTVA hasn't been in character for a great deal of this.  If every single person below Admiral was uninformed about their intentions on hitting Earth, you would have had a massive full scale rebellion likely throughout the GTVA without enormous amounts of propaganda before hand.  While I like where the story went, just that bit seemed clunky.

[General Battuta]

Like I said, I still feel the GTVA hasn't been in character for a great deal of this.  If every single person below Admiral was uninformed about their intentions on hitting Earth, you would have had a massive full scale rebellion likely throughout the GTVA without enormous amounts of propaganda before hand.

Sure they were informed. They were told their legendary homeland, a place that some of them still remembered and had visited, was now in the hands of a religious government with a non-elected cabal in charge.

Cue outrage.

[QuantumDelta]

Can anyone point me to info on the GTVA / GTA being democratic btw? (Canon Infos!)

[Mongoose]

Any strategy banking on the Shivans being nice and going "Oh hey you've been good, so we're not going to kill you all! ^_^" doesn't feel much like a strategy. I mean what, is this a Disney movie? Everyone hold hands and sing, and the Shivans will be your friend? What fairy tale world are you living in?

We prove we are worthy of surviving by giving them one hell of a fight! (and trying to survive as long as possible while...strategically advancing in the other direction).

...who said anything whatsoever about that being a strategy?  That's not what the UEF is advocating, that's not what Samuel Bei concluded, and that's not what any rational person on either side would think.  What most rational people should think, however, is that humanity engaging in the very sort of behavior that brought the Shivans upon us in the first place is a very, very bad idea.  Aardwolf said it best: the Shivans destroy the destroyers.  From where I'm sitting, the entirety of Sol being embroiled in civil war looks a heck of a lot like destruction.

Let me put this bluntly: Terrans and/or Vasudans will never be able to stand up to the Shivans militarily.  Ever.  This is a species that can muster up a hundred juggernauts with main weapons of physics-defying power at the drop of a hat.  This is a species that is able to blow up stars.  Build all the warships you want, maintain your vigilance as strictly as you can...it doesn't matter in the end.  If the Shivans want you dead, you will die.  That is, as MattTheGeek says, if you completely discount the Vishnans.  While they undoubtedly have their own motives, they're the one true hope humanity has for long-term survival...and seeing as how the UEF are the side attempting to communicate with them, I see every reason to support their side.

[Scotty]

You know, every problem you cite in your first paragraph could be easily solved by the UEF just surrendering.

[Javito1986]

The GTVA could also back down. Why should the UEF surrender? They're the ones being attacked.

[Aardwolf]

Well, it would save millions, maybe billions of their own lives. And if you go with the "Shivans will whoop your as for fighting" thing, even more on both sides.

[Snail]

Again and again and again, you always forget the Vishnans in all this...

Vishnans are arguably just as bad if not worse than the Shivans. If you really think they're going to come to the rescue and save everyone, think again. The Shivans and Vishnans are always wiping each others' arses and patting each other on the back as they take turns annihilating entire species on a whim. Time to take the fight to the 'Gods' of the universe.

Still not being entirely serious

[Mongoose]

Well, it would save millions, maybe billions of their own lives. And if you go with the "Shivans will whoop your as for fighting" thing, even more on both sides.

It's not the UEF's responsibility to do that, though.  The GTVA are the ones who brought the war to Sol, not the other way around.  They're the aggressors here.  In fact, if the Shivans displayed behavior such as distinguishing between factions (which all evidence suggests they don't), I'd wager that they'd come down on the GTVA and largely ignore the UEF, as the former are the ones acting as "destroyers" here.  It seems rather absurd to suggest that the onus should be on the invaded faction to surrender as opposed to the invading faction to, y'know, stop invading.

[Snail]

In fact, if the Shivans displayed behavior such as distinguishing between factions (which all evidence suggests they don't), I'd wager that they'd come down on the GTVA and largely ignore the UEF, as the former are the ones acting as "destroyers" here.

But as you said, they don't. Undercutting your entire argument.

[Aardwolf]

Well, it would save millions, maybe billions of their own lives. And if you go with the "Shivans will whoop your as for fighting" thing, even more on both sides.

It's not the UEF's responsibility to do that, though.  The GTVA are the ones who brought the war to Sol, not the other way around.  They're the aggressors here.  In fact, if the Shivans displayed behavior such as distinguishing between factions (which all evidence suggests they don't), I'd wager that they'd come down on the GTVA and largely ignore the UEF, as the former are the ones acting as "destroyers" here.  It seems rather absurd to suggest that the onus should be on the invaded faction to surrender as opposed to the invading faction to, y'know, stop invading.

But which do you think is more likely to happen, assuming there's no act(s) of god(s) to interfere?

[Mongoose]

In fact, if the Shivans displayed behavior such as distinguishing between factions (which all evidence suggests they don't), I'd wager that they'd come down on the GTVA and largely ignore the UEF, as the former are the ones acting as "destroyers" here.

But as you said, they don't. Undercutting your entire argument.

I know they don't, which is why I advocated for an alternative option in the first place. You can't hope to defeat the Shivans by force of arms, and you can't hope to get all pacifist with them, either.  (Just ask the Ancients how retreating to their home system worked out.)  The only option is to find another way, which is what Bei was advocating and the UEF powers-that-be seem to be doing.  I have to say that I can't see the GTVA being all that excited about continuing that work if they were to take over Sol.

But which do you think is more likely to happen, assuming there's no act(s) of god(s) to interfere?

I would hope that it would be more likely that the GTVA fleets and/or citizenry would recognize that they're being fed massive amounts of misleading propaganda and rise up against it, but apparently that hasn't been the case.  Still, despite the potential long-term benefits, I can't condone the UEF having to roll over and play dead in the face of unjust aggression.  Besides that, even if the UEF did surrender unconditionally, there's no guarantee that this would satisfy the Shivans, since the GTVA's philosophy of the moment isn't too far off from the "destroyer" mentality.  Also, don't forget that we've already seen quite a few acts of "gods," so I think continued interference is kind of a given.

[General Battuta]

bump for fools who haven't taken it

[Destiny]

Fool?! Just kiddin'. Taken.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

Taken what?

[Pred the Penguin]

The.... poll.