[General Battuta]

Please play Age Of Aquarius, mission "A time of Heroes". Two Destroyers and a few Corvettes take down a Sath in a matter of seconds.

Also, take a close look at WiH's Serkr Team, and think about what their primary role is.

The Colossus is, ultimately, too large and inefficient to ever be mass-produced. The GTVA instead opted to introduce new Destroyer and Corvette classes that could do the job just as well.

They did take down the Sathanas mighty quick once it's beams were down but all the same the GTVA fleet is still smaller than 80 saths (a couple dozen destroyers in BP canon if I remember right), strikecraft taken into consideration as well. The GTVA fleet would be unable to debeam and probably get overwhelmed by Shivan bombers alone. Hypothetical Sathanas fleet engagement = 0 chance of survival.

You are probably correct. I'm sure the GTVA has gamed out the scenarios.

[-Sara-]

In a Sathanas fleet engagement for every Sathanas you 'de-fang' (undoing it of it's frontal beam cannons) two more Sathanas juggs enter the battle having now 2 at a time firing on you, where when de-fanging another one an additional 2 have gotten into range, thus 3 are firing at you, etc. Therefor the precise jumping and new jump drive research I imagine. To hit one and get out, let the new logistic ships repair you as much as possible and then jump back to hit one again after which you flee again.

[-Norbert-]

Wether one or two or even three Sathanas fire their main beams at you doesn't really matter. Unless there is something done with scripting, Rayners and Titans go down from two BFRed hits. And when a single Sathanas can take two destroyers down per beam-salvo, it doesn't matter if there are two or 20 of them lined up.
The only real chance you have against a not de-fanged Sath is hitting them from the sides or from behind.

On that matter, do we have any canon information or estimation on a Sathanas' fighter and bomber complement?

[Scotty]

Wether one or two or even three Sathanas fire their main beams at you doesn't really matter. Unless there is something done with scripting, Rayners and Titans go down from two BFRed hits. And when a single Sathanas can take two destroyers down per beam-salvo, it doesn't matter if there are two or 20 of them lined up.
The only real chance you have against a not de-fanged Sath is hitting them from the sides or from behind.

Every time I see this kind of statement, I wonder how anyone could possibly come up with a realistic scenario where a Sathanas has a perfect opening salvo opportunity against two destroyers.  Hell, even one destroyer.  Every destroyer ever destroyed in canon by a Sathanas has either been anchored to a defensive position or didn't even know the Sathanas existed.

If a Sathanas were truly capable of the kind of precision jumping necessary to surprise GTVA ships with a beam-range transition, they'd have done so against the Orestes.  That they did not, while not necessarily being definitive, ranges high on the scale of retarded for maneuvers if they could have.

Two destroyers and supporting elements, against a fully prepared, fully armed Sathanas while that Sathanas had the benefit of choosing when and where to engage managed to destroy it with no losses outside of fighter craft.

There isn't a much more definitive scenario than that.

[General Battuta]

That post is built on bad assumptions. Bolding those bad assumptions is not a good move.

I can see plenty of scenarios in which a single Sathanas could have a perfect opening salvo against two destroyers. One Sath draws, the other hits. If there'd been a second Sath present in A Time for Heroes you might've seen that.

[Scotty]

However, there was not, which begs the question why the Sathanas didn't jump into direct beam range in the first place.

[X3N0-Life-Form]

Yeah, it's sometimes hard to think of a plausible reason why a Sathanas/Ravana/Lilith doesn't just jump next to its target and beam it down in 10-20s, instead of giving just the time GTVA pilots need to defang them.

LReds and BFReds are simply too frikkin powerful once they start firing.

[SpardaSon21]

Plot.  It is always plot.

[-Norbert-]

First off, I was just answering to Saras comment. Since she was specifically talking about firing Sathanas, I did so in the answer to that comment as well.

Every time I see this kind of statement, I wonder how anyone could possibly come up with a realistic scenario where a Sathanas has a perfect opening salvo opportunity against two destroyers.  Hell, even one destroyer.  Every destroyer ever destroyed in canon by a Sathanas has either been anchored to a defensive position or didn't even know the Sathanas existed.

If a Sathanas were truly capable of the kind of precision jumping necessary to surprise GTVA ships with a beam-range transition, they'd have done so against the Orestes.  That they did not, while not necessarily being definitive, ranges high on the scale of retarded for maneuvers if they could have.

Two destroyers and supporting elements, against a fully prepared, fully armed Sathanas while that Sathanas had the benefit of choosing when and where to engage managed to destroy it with no losses outside of fighter craft.

There isn't a much more definitive scenario than that.

Maybe you should replay those two missions.
In the one against the Lucifer, the Sathanas jumps in, not to destroy the Orestes, but to destroy the Keeper. And guess what? It jumps in within beamrange of the Keeper and immediately destroys it.
And in the followup mission it's the Orestes that attacks the Sathanas, not the other way round. The Sath is on the defense here and barring a miniture jump (something seen in neither vanilla nor BP), she has only the choices to either retreat or use her sub-light engines to get in range.
So when the Sathanas was able to choose the battlefield, it was instant death for their prey. The 14th BG was only able to defeat the Sathanas, because they were the ones choosing the battlefield, not the Sathanas.

[Scotty]

it's the Orestes that attacks the Sathanas, not the other way round.

Wat.  Every time you play that mission, you float around for a few minutes while the Sathanas isn't there waiting for it to attack.  There's no way the Orestes and accompanying battlegroup knew exactly what minute volume of space the Sathanas would jump into.  The Orestes draws the Sathanas off, giving it a prime target and trying to order the other ships to escape (which, obviously, they refuse to do).

[NGTM-1R]

That post is built on bad assumptions. Bolding those bad assumptions is not a good move.

And since you won't explain why they're bad, why should we take you seriously? Snail's view appears to jibe with the mission you put out.

[Scotty]

That's twice you've confused me for Snail during one of these conversations.

[NGTM-1R]

That's twice you've confused me for Snail during one of these conversations.

DETAILS

Actually, it occurs to me now that BP1 could simply have been pointing to a truth we've all conveniently forgotten. The shock-jump could simply be a myth born of a Ravana that got lucky. The Great Hunt and FS1's Clash Of The Titans are the only missions that really support an ultra-precision-jump capability for capital craft.

[-Sara-]

I'm guessing it's down to exact timing on when you leave subspace, as well as taking into account the movement of planets, stars, and their gravity. Perhaps also inconcistencies inside subspace (since subspace vortexes seem to have energy swirls they're probably not 'smooth' and exact) have an influence on where you come out and when. The faster your subspacedrive can react and compensate for all these inconcistencies, the more accurate I think you jump. That's my view on subspace anyway.

[Scotty]

We know from M01 of the FS2 campaign that it's possible to track the end position of a ship entering subspace based only on said entrance.  The shock jump could be very easily done by having a spotter or scout craft in the area (Aurora, anyone?) and feeding the co-ordinates you would need.  Other than that, you only have a general volume to emerge from, and engagement is less effective as a whole.

[General Battuta]

However, there was not, which begs the question why the Sathanas didn't jump into direct beam range in the first place.

Answered below.

That post is built on bad assumptions. Bolding those bad assumptions is not a good move.

And since you won't explain why they're bad, why should we take you seriously? Snail's view appears to jibe with the mission you put out.

Because you have canonical information explaining when a shock jump works and when it doesn't, in quite some detail. Scotty did a good job on it.

[DarthWang]

The Gargant arrives on the UEF side and demolishes the GTVA fleet

[NGTM-1R]

Because you have canonical information explaining when a shock jump works and when it doesn't, in quite some detail. Scotty did a good job on it.

No he didn't. He gave us tracking, but that's less than half the equation. He didn't give us navigation. In the FS2 and FS1 campaigns there's really no unequivocal evidence for this sort of ultra-precision jumping. I mean it's great, sure, you've found the enemy. But that doesn't really matter if you can't actually exploit that information for an immediate beam-range jump attack, and there isn't much evidence from FS1 and FS2 to support that this sort of thing can be done ultra-precisely enough to make the shock-jump a viable tactic.

So where's this magical canon you're talking about? Canon doesn't even discuss shock jumps.

[General Battuta]

Because you have canonical information explaining when a shock jump works and when it doesn't, in quite some detail. Scotty did a good job on it.

No he didn't. He gave us tracking, but that's less than half the equation. He didn't give us navigation. In the FS2 and FS1 campaigns there's really no unequivocal evidence for this sort of ultra-precision jumping. I mean it's great, sure, you've found the enemy. But that doesn't really matter if you can't actually exploit that information for an immediate beam-range jump attack, and there isn't much evidence from FS1 and FS2 to support that this sort of thing can be done ultra-precisely enough to make the shock-jump a viable tactic.

So where's this magical canon you're talking about? Canon doesn't even discuss shock jumps.

Look at what forum you're in.

In Blue Planet, scouts spending time on target can calculate increasingly more precise jump coordinates for later arrivals.

It opens up fun gameplay, too.

[NGTM-1R]

Look at what forum you're in.

I did. We're discussing why BP1's Shivans aren't stupid. What's it to you?