[Mars]

Conceptually I love the Hecate and Myrmidon and other such bizzare designs. The Hades is just a little too. . . it looks like it was made with bits of lumber and some markers.

[SaltyWaffles]

That brand new ship is called the Raynor.

Does the Raynor actually have comparable durability to the Hades, though? After all, the Hades has the notable distinction of being capable of surviving the first salvo of a Sath's main beams (enough time to jump out, perhaps?) without being a juggernaut.

Conceptually I love the Hecate and Myrmidon and other such bizzare designs. The Hades is just a little too. . . it looks like it was made with bits of lumber and some markers.

I totally agree. The Hades' general design--especially its shape and layout--is just ugly. As for the Hecate...well, it could be awesome, but it suffers from a few serious flaws: lack of turrets in key areas (especially those giant 'fin' plates, which are pretty much made for such PD turrets), few and extremely brittle, large beam cannons (easier to disarm than a Deimos...and with much worse coverage), and a totally contrasting handling/maneuverability with its aesthetic (gigantic engines on top of half a dozen smaller engines, and it's as slow as an Orion...and with the engines being proportioned, laid out, and positioned as they are, the Hecate should have excellent maneuverability for a destroyer--not the exact opposite). That, I suppose, and having just one fighter bay instead of several at the many areas of the ship which completely lack practical purpose, but would be perfect for such a fighter bay. I've already had some fun/success at tinkering with POFs and tables to work on the first three issues, but I have no experience with modelling with which to address the last one.

[Aesaar]

No it doesn't.  The Colossus has more hit points than the Hades, but still can't survive a Sathanas shock-jump.  Ergo, the Hades can't either.  The hitpoints are lying.

[MatthTheGeek]

After all, the Hades has the notable distinction of being capable of surviving the first salvo of a Sath's main beams

Wait what.

Where does that come from ? And no, don't answer "tables". You know as well as I why you shouldn't answer "tables".

[SaltyWaffles]

After all, the Hades has the notable distinction of being capable of surviving the first salvo of a Sath's main beams

Wait what.

Where does that come from ? And no, don't answer "tables". You know as well as I why you shouldn't answer "tables".

Outside of BP, here. Heck, if you DO go by tables, Volition originally set the Hades to have 800,000 hitpoints (!), which was then halved for ST:R. It got rammed by a prepared, deliberate kamikaze attack from a Typhon-class destroyer--and it only sustained significant damage to its maneuverability (IIRC--and it's been a while--it was merely brought down to normal destroyer-level, even at that). On top of its huge bulk, it's got all kinds of benefits from reverse-engineered Shivan tech (and possibly even direct Shivan tech) that was at the absolute cutting edge of any Terran or Vasudan entity known.

No it doesn't.  The Colossus has more hit points than the Hades, but still can't survive a Sathanas shock-jump.  Ergo, the Hades can't either.  The hitpoints are lying.

The Colossus was not in good shape to begin with. Then it got shock-jumped by a Ravana. After it killed the Ravana, a Sathanas shock-jumped it. Hell, even from a literal standpoint, the amount of hitpoints the Colly had by the time of the Sath shock-jump was fairly low. And yes, sometimes (usually on lower difficulties) the Colossus does survive the first salvo.

[Phantom Hoover]

*sigh*

You realise that tables being only loosely canon isn't something BP invented? The Phoenicia's survival, the Lysander's destruction; hell, even the Lucifer's invulnerability are all things that are hacked in during missions. You simply cannot declare that the Hades would survive a full salvo from  a Sathanas; it's more or less completely up to individual opinion, so stop declaring things to be canon because of *your* vague justifications.

[Aesaar]

I'm going to tell you what I told Apollo on this subject: No ship, not Terran, not Vasudan, not even Vishnan, can survive a Sathanas shock jump when all its main beams are intact.  It can't be done.  Period.  End of story.  If the tables tell you otherwise, they're wrong.

The only exception to this rule is when we're talking about the huge superships we see in Universal Truth.  A glorified Great War era destroyer most certainly doesn't qualify.

[Apollo]

The Hades (at least with its FS1 hitpoints) can survive a single salvo from the Sathanas. The problem is, the Sathanas's beams recharge so fast that the Hades will still get blown up very quickly.

That is, unless that first salvo hits the Hades reactor/fuel supply/whatever other random system the BP team can think of. Then it might die instantly.

[MatthTheGeek]

The Hope ramming the Hades is not canon because ST:R itself is not canon.

STR is part of BP canon. Your argument is invalid.

[Androgeos Exeunt]

I originally deleted this, but Matth told me this was a bad idea since it was already responded to, so...

Outside of BP, here. Heck, if you DO go by tables, Volition originally set the Hades to have 800,000 hitpoints (!), which was then halved for ST:R. It got rammed by a prepared, deliberate kamikaze attack from a Typhon-class destroyer--and it only sustained significant damage to its maneuverability (IIRC--and it's been a while--it was merely brought down to normal destroyer-level, even at that). On top of its huge bulk, it's got all kinds of benefits from reverse-engineered Shivan tech (and possibly even direct Shivan tech) that was at the absolute cutting edge of any Terran or Vasudan entity known.

The Hope ramming the Hades is not canon because ST:R itself is not canon. In canon, we do not know if the Hades could withstand a destroyer's head-on collision because it has never been done. In addition, has never used the Hades in any mission in the FS2 campaign, so we cannot determine if the Hades can survive a Shivan shock-jump attack.

The Colossus was not in good shape to begin with. Then it got shock-jumped by a Ravana. After it killed the Ravana, a Sathanas shock-jumped it. Hell, even from a literal standpoint, the amount of hitpoints the Colly had by the time of the Sath shock-jump was fairly low. And yes, sometimes (usually on lower difficulties) the Colossus does survive the first salvo.

At full health, the Colossus still cannot survive a shock-jump from a Sathanas. Even if it survives a full salvo from all four of the Sathanas' main guns, it cannot get out of the juggernaut's front cannons fast enough to avoid destruction from additional salvos. This is why the Alliance needed to destroy at least two of the first Sathanas' main guns before they could be certain that there was even a small chance that the Colossus could survive direct engagement with the Shivan juggernaut.

[Aesaar]

I'm pretty sure ST:R is BP canon.

[Mars]

GTCv Marcus Glaive

[MatthTheGeek]

Well, pulse are made by Morgan Technologies, that doesn't automatically make Derelict canon. And the Cretheus tech strongly hints at Vassago's Dirge, which still doesn't make it BP canon either.

STR is canon because the devs said so, not because of in-universe references.

[SaltyWaffles]

Okay, sorry for being a bit thick again. My apologies.

On a different note:

I'm curious as to why the 'disable linked primaries penalty' flag in the default AI profiles table is left to 'no'. Not saying it's 'wrong' or anything--though I would love for it to be changed to 'yes' for a number of reasons--but I'm curious about the reasoning behind the decision. Are there some reasons for the penalty that I'm missing, or was it just a feature that wasn't available in time to be incorporated into WiH, and by that time it might have screwed up the mission balancing, etc?

I did a bit of experimentation on it recently, and it worked surprisingly well. Mission balance was indeed a bit altered, but not terribly so, and the good changes (in my impression) were well worth it. The Uhlan felt much more fun to fly, as the loadouts became much more diverse due to more options being viable. The Vulcan was now a viable choice over the Maul, and using a Maul/Vulcan or Vulcan/Scalpel setup actually worked well. With the Kentauroi, it was the same kind of thing: more options were viable, and thus it was all more fun. It felt fresh, even. When using a Perseus, or Draco perhaps, the 2-2 gun bank setup was actually fun again, as I wasn't restricted to all Prom S's for good efficiency. I could vary my loadout tremendously, and it made everything much more fun.

Further, though, it really helps to avoid the trend towards using the same weapon in all banks for good efficiency--and for that weapon to be more and more of a generalist.

That's just my impression from a trial run--whether this is actually a good idea for the mod or not in practice is something I can't say. Especially with regards to mission balance (and other balance), I completely understand if it's too impractical to implement now, even if it is a good idea for the mod hypothetically (which it might not be).

[Apollo]

Well, it would make some loadouts more viable. On the other hand, any ship with quad-linked primaries would instantly be downgraded because it would lack versatility.

[fearsom]

A military freighter designed with meson bomb deployment in mind. Able to quickly drop the bomb and get out of the blast range. Faster than civilian freighters. Well armored to be able to take some punishment and enough point defense turrets to shoot down some bombs and fighters. Maybe even be able to shield the bomb itself.

[crizza]

Uh...if I'm not mistaken, someone of the team said, the GTVA has meson fireships as of now...

[headdie]

they confirmed node busters but thats about it iirc

[SaltyWaffles]

Well, it would make some loadouts more viable. On the other hand, any ship with quad-linked primaries would instantly be downgraded because it would lack versatility.

True, but how many of those are there? The Artemis, Kulas, and...is that it? Either way, it's pretty easy to tweak the pofs on those few fighters, do a slight edit on the shp-tbm, and there you go. Since the ROF is consistent, their performance is the same--but they have more options now, as do practically all the fighters.

But as it is, those quad-linked primary fighters are already lacking in versatility; you can only equip one type of gun to all of your guns--leaving the Artemis with only Maxims to defend itself with, or the Kulas without, say, a more energy-friendly gun for when power reserves are running low due to heavy Prometheus S usage.

[NGTM-1R]

True, but how many of those are there? The Artemis, Kulas, and...is that it?

Sekhmet and Thoth or nu-Thoth. Vasudans could show up in the rest of WiH after all.