Poll

What is your opinion on beam fade?

I detest the effect
55 (57.3%)
I like the effect
13 (13.5%)
I have no strong feelings
28 (29.2%)

Total Members Voted: 96

Author Topic: Beam fade poll  (Read 34661 times)

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Offline General Battuta

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you most make an update
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 01:27:54 pm by Jeff Vader »

 

Offline Kolgena

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wat i don understand

 

Offline blowfish

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Could we at least temporarily get instructions on how to restore longer beams (without reverting to old MVPs)? It seems like this debate isn't going to end any time soon.

TBM attached.  A real patch (fixing some other things too) may be coming soon though, so remember to delete it when that happens.

Put it in mediavps_3612/data/tables

[attachment deleted by ninja]

 

Offline CP5670

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I don't have any preference over the appearance either way, but this is a huge game breaker if it forces fire-beam to use the normal range values. I can think of several missions in PI as well as a number of multiplayer missions (including possibly a Volition one) that would get totally messed up by this. There are enough compatibility hassles with new MVP releases as it is without deliberately creating such problems.

 

Offline jr2

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Eh, can this be fixed so that the beam fades as normal (whatever we eventually agree the "normal" range is) unless fire-beam is used, in which case it will fade to the distance of the target specified in fire-beam, if and only if fire-beam to target distance is longer than the normal max range (whatever that may turn out to be)?  This seems to be a reasonable compromise.

So:

beam-fade to normal max range unless
a) fire-beam is used AND
b) distance to target specified by fire-beam is more than the max range of the beam weapon
in which case beam-fade stretches to the range of the fire-beam target

Sound good?

 

Offline blowfish

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That won't work without major code changes :doubtful:

 

Offline Sushi

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Eh, can this be fixed so that the beam fades as normal (whatever we eventually agree the "normal" range is) unless fire-beam is used, in which case it will fade to the distance of the target specified in fire-beam, if and only if fire-beam to target distance is longer than the normal max range (whatever that may turn out to be)?  This seems to be a reasonable compromise.

So:

beam-fade to normal max range unless
a) fire-beam is used AND
b) distance to target specified by fire-beam is more than the max range of the beam weapon
in which case beam-fade stretches to the range of the fire-beam target

Sound good?

+1 :yes: IMO this is the best solution, although it does require a code change. I don't suppose it's possible to ship a 3.6.12.1? :)

 

Offline Kolgena

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That would have the side effect of creating slinky beams. They would dynamically adapt to the target range, which could look odd if target distance changes rapidly. I'm thinking about long range Mjolnir beams + warp speed (120 m/s) destroyers. That, and I think it looks better to have a consistent beam length regardless of what it's shooting. I don't think beam turrets dynamically manage energy output based on target range anyway. (Actually, when Colossus shreds the 1st Sath after bear baiting, what range are those BFGreens shooting at?)

Wait, if you could tell it to check for hull intersection as well, that means we could have short range beam fades on piercing only. That would be quite badass but most likely hard to do.


Edit: Just saw blowfish's attached tbm. Thx!
« Last Edit: August 30, 2010, 05:43:23 pm by Kolgena »

 

Offline CommanderDJ

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I haven't read through the whole thread, just posting my view on this.

Frankly, it looks REALLY BAD when a beam fades so much it's almost transparent and then it hits something and there's an explosion effect on the ship that appears to be coming out of nowhere. To me, it really destroys the "holy ****" factor that came with 30km beams (or however long they are). I don't mind the fading AFTER it pierces a dying ship, but beforehand, it ruins prettiness. I am completely against fading before ship piercing. Just my two cents.
[16:57] <CommanderDJ> What prompted the decision to split WiH into acts?
[16:58] <battuta> it was long, we wanted to release something
[16:58] <battuta> it felt good to have a target to hit
[17:00] <RangerKarl> not sure if talking about strike mission, or jerking off
[17:00] <CommanderDJ> WUT
[17:00] <CommanderDJ> hahahahaha
[17:00] <battuta> hahahaha
[17:00] <RangerKarl> same thing really, if you think about it

 

Offline Goober5000

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Add my voice to those who hate the new effect. :no:  In fact, when I finally got around to downloading the newest mediaVPs, the very first campaign I played was Derelict.  And I promptly ran into the issue NGTM-1R noted when I played the mission where a Sobek tries to disable a pirate corvette from long range.

This is aside from the fact that visually, the effect looks ridiculous.  It's well-established in FreeSpace that beams are precisely controlled photons, therefore they automatically have infinite length, at least visibly.  Light doesn't magically stop after a certain distance.

And a point nobody has mentioned yet is that this effect doesn't even follow its own rules.  When energy disperses at a distance, it widens.  It does not narrow.

 

Offline BlackDove

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Who's idea was it to include this by the way?

Any why?

 

Offline General Battuta

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It was added to Blue Planet: War in Heaven's tables during development because some elements of the team disliked 30km beams. When the Blue Planet visual effects became a large portion of the 3.6.12 MVPs, the fade was ported over as well. This was not a good thing.

 

Offline BlackDove

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Sounds like some protocol should be created so as to control what goes into the Media VP's.

Because this is really... as you said, "not a good thing".

 

Offline General Battuta

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Sounds like some protocol should be created so as to control what goes into the Media VP's.

Usually the protocol is a combination of 'common sense' and 'does not break missions'. However Fury believed that the MVPs were only responsible to maintain compatibility with retail campaigns, not mods.

I believe that has been corrected.

It's worth noting that beam fade has already been removed from Blue Planet's beams, so hopefully the MVPs follow suit.

 

Offline The E

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They were removed from the FSU SVN some time ago.
If I'm just aching this can't go on
I came from chasing dreams to feel alone
There must be changes, miss to feel strong
I really need lifе to touch me
--Evergrey, Where August Mourns

 

Offline Fury

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Usually the protocol is a combination of 'common sense' and 'does not break missions'. However Fury believed that the MVPs were only responsible to maintain compatibility with retail campaigns, not mods.

I believe that has been corrected.

It's worth noting that beam fade has already been removed from Blue Planet's beams, so hopefully the MVPs follow suit.
I would appreciate if you do not try to speak for me, since it usually turns out to be wrong or taken out of context.

When merging of BP effects into mediavps took place, I did not even once think of beam ranges or fading thereof. Yes, you may call that an oversight or a mistake, but when you incorporate large changes like that, you rely on feedback of beta testers and involved staffers. The mediavps were tested over several weeks and I received only one response over beam ranges and that was from Axem concerning AAA beams, which was addressed.

If you want to blame someone for beam ranges, you can blame all people involved in beta-testing and development of mediavps. What I think about mediavps and supporting mods, is irrelevant to issue at hand. The fact is that nobody bothered to remind me or anyone else involved in the process that those beam ranges may cause problems or that they don't like it, aside of one issue with AAA beams reported by Axem.

I was in charge of implementing BP effects into mediavps. I did just that, nothing more nothing less. You can keep blaming me all you want, but you really should look into the big picture and who's responsible of what. Beta-testing or development process of mediavps is not my responsibility and never was.

During development of AoA, only Battuta ever voiced his dislike for the beam ranges. The range was never changed back to retail due to overruling by majority vote or Darius. Battuta actually brought up the issue multiple times, but no change was made because he couldn't get support for it. But I guess he finally found a way to get that support he lacked during BP development. It was cleverly played out really, since he even succeeded in getting them removed from BP apparently. Well played, Battuta. You finally got what you wanted even if it took this long.

I spent a lot of time on these mediavps, was thanked only by Zacam and the rest I get for it is a bucketload of ****. Here's a newsflash for you, don't take such work for granted. There are people who make visual effects, models, textures, stuff you can see. And then there are people who put it all together into something you can actually play. The latter crowd hardly ever get any thanks, people take them and their work for granted while the first crowd get "oohs" and "aahs" at every opportunity. Yet it is the latter crowd who shoulder the largest responsibility. Nobody remembers them, probably assuming a mod simply assembles itself via magic.

The bottom line is, development of a mod, even mediavps is shared responsibility and a lot of you come out as ungrateful jerks who never see anything but the small picture in front of your long noses.

 

Offline General Battuta

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I'm sorry. I didn't mean to blame you, that was genuinely my impression of how events played out.

It's a relatively trivial visual effect, not something worth getting too agitated over - or worth conspiring elaborately over either.

You shouldn't take this as a personal attack, I don't think anyone here is anything but grateful to you for your work. And I also believe I've spent many words praising you for all your hard work, both to your face and behind your back.

I have never tried to make this a personal issue about you.

  

Offline chief1983

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This is aside from the fact that visually, the effect looks ridiculous.  It's well-established in FreeSpace that beams are precisely controlled photons, therefore they automatically have infinite length, at least visibly.  Light doesn't magically stop after a certain distance.

If the beam was precisely controlled photons, you'd never see the beam because the photons would be traveling to the target, not your eyes.  If you're seeing the beam, it's because energy is being dissipated outward from the beam along its length, meaning at some point the beam would indeed lose both energy and intensity.  Assuming the beam actually behaves logically on any physical level.

You don't see laser beams, you see what they reflect from.  Beams must be something other than aligned photons.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 01:33:14 pm by chief1983 »
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Offline Goober5000

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If the beam was precisely controlled photons, you'd never see the beam because the photons would be traveling to the target, not your eyes.  If you're seeing the beam, it's because energy is being dissipated outward from the beam along its length, meaning at some point the beam would indeed lose both energy and intensity.  Assuming the beam actually behaves logically on any physical level.

You don't see laser beams, you see what they reflect from.  Beams must be something other than aligned photons.
Yes, I'm aware of that, but Rule of Cool and Rule of Perception dictate that we must see the beam. ;)  You can no more draw a conclusion from that than you can draw a conclusion from explosions having sounds in space.

 

Offline chief1983

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If you're going more by that than by science, then we can make them dissipate, fade, or widen, whatever looks cooler, without regard to science.  You just negated your previous argument :P

Where is it said that the beams are aligned photons anyway?
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"You may not sell or otherwise commercially exploit the source or things you created based on the source." -- Excerpt from FSO license, for reference

Nuclear1:  Jesus Christ zack you're a little too hamyurger for HLP right now...
iamzack:  i dont have hamynerge i just want ptatoc hips D:
redsniper:  Platonic hips?!
iamzack:  lays