[Pred the Penguin]

Not as amusing to me.

[General Battuta]

How about Navi porn: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6x6_L5--3M (LOL)

Sorry but mine was way more arousing*

*disclosure i am a rare parrot

[Mikes]

Not as amusing to me.

Well to me the amusing part was not really the trailer, but rather the fact that there actually is an Avatar porn movie.


On an unrelated note, i find it quite amusing that the poll option "Why watch porn, when you can make it" comes out third, or even second  (if you discount the nonanswer)...  must be the "Let's do it yourself" modders spirit on these forums? LOL

[Nuke]

I would argue why not disrespect for both sexes?

I tend to agree. If you're going to argue that it's disrespectful to women to reduce them to a collection of naughty bits then it's surely just as disrespectful to reduce the guy to only one.

i kinda fail to see how that video of two doms zapping a guys penis with a stun gun could be construeded as degrading to women. there are lots of things in porn degrading to men as well.

[karajorma]

Yep, that's why the whole "Degrading to women" argument has always been a huge non-starter for me. If you're saying it you obviously have an axe to grind of some sort which then makes the rest of your argument suspicious.

[Marcov]

The "disrespect for opposite sex" doesn't necessarily apply only to women, that's why it's called "opposite sex", not "women".

Does this mean that a number of HLP members are actually pornographers (a number voted the "why watch porn when you can make it" option)?

[NGTM-1R]

The "disrespect for opposite sex" doesn't necessarily apply only to women, that's why it's called "opposite sex", not "women".

Do you honestly believe that the only people who watch FemDom stuff are women?

[Nuke]

Does this mean that a number of HLP members are actually pornographers (a number voted the "why watch porn when you can make it" option)?

that option was put there for those who have created amateur porn. sometimes forum members are subject to rule 34/35.

[Luis Dias]

Yep, that's why the whole "Degrading to women" argument has always been a huge non-starter for me. If you're saying it you obviously have an axe to grind of some sort which then makes the rest of your argument suspicious.

I think it's not unfair to say that women get it way worse than men in pornography, mostly because the main clients of porn are males, after all. The degradation comes right through the practices pictured in the movies, with gangbangs, anal, forced felatios, and the ubiquituous "milk over yo face *****", which is absolutely degrading. The next fantasy, the drinking of semen, only a male that would never imagine himself doing just that would appreciate it.

And this assymetry is so disgusting that I really avoid overall porn.

I don't think that there are symetrical degradations over the other sex. And this is blatantly obvious and doesn't require any axe to grind to find it out. Just, you know, basic empathy towards women.

The "disrespect for opposite sex" doesn't necessarily apply only to women, that's why it's called "opposite sex", not "women".

Does this mean that a number of HLP members are actually pornographers (a number voted the "why watch porn when you can make it" option)?

I didn't vote that way, but I believe that people thought of that option as a "I'd rather be ****ing than seeing other people ****ing".

[General Battuta]

I think it's not unfair to say that women get it way worse than men in pornography

This is probably true - it's easy to quantify that viewing porn has a more deleterious effect on short-term attitudes towards women than men (though not easy to do this in the long term.)

However, then you said something silly

mostly because the main clients of porn are males, after all. The degradation comes right through the practices pictured in the movies, with gangbangs, anal, forced felatios, and the ubiquituous "milk over yo face *****", which is absolutely degrading. The next fantasy, the drinking of semen, only a male that would never imagine himself doing just that would appreciate it.

I hate to tell you bro but there are perfectly healthy women who consider all these things enjoyable and arousing. Men love group sex, women love group sex, men love domination/submission, women love domination/submission, anal's pleasurable for both sexes. None of those things are inherently wrong or degrading. Hahaha drinking semen is supposed to be inherently disgusting somehow? You'll probably get more fluids doing oral on a woman. Hell, there are even oral techniques for women which involve passing the semen back to the man with a kiss if you're feeling guilty about it or something.

Sex gets pretty kinky. The problems with porn and the treatment of women aren't inherent to any of these sexual practices. Rather they're generally resident in the framing narratives or in cultural attitudes towards sex - for example, that women are chaste gatekeepers and men are promiscuous stallions. It's not as if most porn doesn't objectify the men as much as the women; they're basically spear carriers (hurr hurr). But porn does tend to be shot with a distinctly male gaze.

[Mikes]

Yep, that's why the whole "Degrading to women" argument has always been a huge non-starter for me. If you're saying it you obviously have an axe to grind of some sort which then makes the rest of your argument suspicious.

I think it's not unfair to say that women get it way worse than men in pornography, mostly because the main clients of porn are males, after all. The degradation comes right through the practices pictured in the movies, with gangbangs, anal, forced felatios, and the ubiquituous "milk over yo face *****", which is absolutely degrading. The next fantasy, the drinking of semen, only a male that would never imagine himself doing just that would appreciate it.

And this assymetry is so disgusting that I really avoid overall porn.

I don't think that there are symetrical degradations over the other sex. And this is blatantly obvious and doesn't require any axe to grind to find it out. Just, you know, basic empathy towards women.

I'd have to point out that "porn is degrading to women" is simply a very inaccurate oversimplification.

There is porn that is degrading to women, certainly. There is also porn that is just as degrading to men however. More to the point, there is also porn that is not degrading to either.
And of course there is porn that is deliberately disgusting, but on the other hand you have porn that puts an emphasis on aesthetics.
There is even porn that could be considered art.  (or even established art that is just as explicit as porn.)

And if that explanation does not satisfy, there is also gay porn (.... waits for the collective ewwww)... how is that degrading to women?

Avoid generalizations, they are generally a bad idea

[General Battuta]

Yeah, gay porn is a good example. It's ironic that lesbian porn is classified as straight porn, though I guess a lot of it is specifically shot to titillate men.

[Luis Dias]

...you said something silly

mostly because the main clients of porn are males, after all. The degradation comes right through the practices pictured in the movies, with gangbangs, anal, forced felatios, and the ubiquituous "milk over yo face *****", which is absolutely degrading. The next fantasy, the drinking of semen, only a male that would never imagine himself doing just that would appreciate it.

I hate to tell you bro but there are perfectly healthy women who consider all these things enjoyable and arousing. Men love group sex, women love group sex, men love domination/submission, women love domination/submission, anal's pleasurable for both sexes. None of those things are inherently wrong or degrading. Hahaha drinking semen is supposed to be inherently disgusting somehow? You'll probably get more fluids doing oral on a woman. Hell, there are even oral techniques for women which involve passing the semen back to the man with a kiss if you're feeling guilty about it or something.

It's true that *some* women may feel pleasure at the germane activity of inoculating semen through their oral orifice. It's also true there are women who like anal, who like all the physical abuse men can imagine putting them through.

They are not, by far, the majority of them. You just have to look at the cringed faces they show in these movies while trying to perform nicely with the yellowest of smiles as ordered by the director. That means that not even the self-selected group really likes it that much.

Not that I'm against the industry in general, or the people that watch it, etc. I'm all fine with that. I just see it as really bad taste.

Sex gets pretty kinky. The problems with porn and the treatment of women aren't inherent to any of these sexual practices.

I agree with that too, my problem is more of a general observation of the incredible lack of pleasure these actors show, more willing to try to outperform some gymnastic feat record, rather than having just fun with it. The performance is checklisted minutely, with all the necessary steps in the middle and the single end: bukkake. This may be sex, but it is horrible sex. This particular point might not have much to do with women's "degradation", if it weren't for the fact that many teenagers nowadays think that sex is what is portrayed in porn, which degrades the act evidently towards the men's fantasies (and I'm speaking about heterossexual activity here, specifically) rather than what may or may not appeal to women.

Rather they're generally resident in the framing narratives or in cultural attitudes towards sex - for example, that women are chaste gatekeepers and men are promiscuous stallions. It's not as if most porn doesn't objectify the men as much as the women; they're basically spear carriers (hurr hurr). But porn does tend to be shot with a distinctly male gaze.

I don't agree with that completely. For a very long time I believed it though. That men should be equal to women, thus these stereotypes were meaningless. They are not. They are deeply embebbed genetically even, so we should, at least, respect these urges as somewhat more fundamental than cultural clichés or long fads that can be swept away with a little cultural brainwash. There are many genetic reasons for these different attitudes, and I'm sure I won't need to list you them, for you are a smart general.

[Luis Dias]

Yep, that's why the whole "Degrading to women" argument has always been a huge non-starter for me. If you're saying it you obviously have an axe to grind of some sort which then makes the rest of your argument suspicious.

I think it's not unfair to say that women get it way worse than men in pornography, mostly because the main clients of porn are males, after all. The degradation comes right through the practices pictured in the movies, with gangbangs, anal, forced felatios, and the ubiquituous "milk over yo face *****", which is absolutely degrading. The next fantasy, the drinking of semen, only a male that would never imagine himself doing just that would appreciate it.

And this assymetry is so disgusting that I really avoid overall porn.

I don't think that there are symetrical degradations over the other sex. And this is blatantly obvious and doesn't require any axe to grind to find it out. Just, you know, basic empathy towards women.

I'd have to point out that "porn is degrading to women" is simply a very inaccurate oversimplification.

Lucky for me, I never said that sentence.

Avoid generalizations, they are generally a bad idea

I'm still lost where you get the idea I said anything like what you are saying.

[Mikes]

Lucky for me, I never said that sentence.

Well what are you saying then? That porn is more degrading to women than men? My reply fits either way, so I don't see the need to split hairs over semantics.

You still appear to focus on a very narrow field of porn and then generalize that all porn is just like that.

[General Battuta]

It's true that *some* women may feel pleasure at the germane activity of inoculating semen through their oral orifice. It's also true there are women who like anal, who like all the physical abuse men can imagine putting them through.

They are not, by far, the majority of them.

You literally have no idea about this, you just made that up. You have no evidence whatsoever and no grounds to make a statistical claim about majorities and minorities. Anal can be fun and easy and doesn't have to be painful. Swallowing semen isn't any different than licking a ****. It tastes funny, you get used to it.

The physical equipment doesn't differ that much. I would wager that 95% of women (and heck, men) would enjoy skillfully done anal.

For perspective, by far the most commonly reported sex fantasy among women is the rape fantasy. This doesn't mean women want to be raped, but it should give you some insight into the fact that women are just about as voracious and ****ed up as men are, they're just taught to be quieter about it.

You just have to look at the cringed faces they show in these movies while trying to perform nicely with the yellowest of smiles as ordered by the director. That means that not even the self-selected group really likes it that much.

NGTM1R already explained in good detail why the act of making porn is so unpleasant, and it has very little to do with the acts performed and a great deal more with the conditions. Go back and read his post. Nobody's arguing that studio porn is somehow good, you just picked terrible reasons to argue it was bad (namely, that the acts depicted were inherently degrading or wrong).

The rest of your post is a waste of words in light of what NGTM1R already delivered, except the following:

This may be sex, but it is horrible sex.

See, this is a much better point than 'it is inherently degrading hurr durr', and one I agree with.

There are many genetic reasons for these different attitudes, and I'm sure I won't need to list you them, for you are a smart general.

The reason you can't list them is because you don't know what they are. These alleged genetic reasons are actually mostly smug patriarchal fantasies that get demolished when you learn anything real about evolutionary psychology, instead of just swallowing the horse**** they give you.

We have no ability right now to precisely separate the biology of sexual behaviors from the cultural. Hypotheses have been advanced that women are biologically hardwired for group sex with multiple male partners, whereas men are hardwired to be aroused by watching women have sex with other men. But these hypotheses are unfalsifiable and should be treated as such.

Basically the takeaway here is that you are a virgin. Once you get into a loving relationship you will hopefully have a chance to explore a bit and become a bit more comfortable with sexuality. I'm also detecting the residue of a religious upbringing here, I think?

[Luis Dias]

Lucky for me, I never said that sentence.

Well what are you saying then? That porn is more degrading to women than men? My reply fits either way, so I don't see the need to split hairs over semantics.

No, it doesn't fit with what I'm saying, since I'm making a statistical and relative argument, and thus your point about me "generalizing" doesn't make sense anymore.

[General Battuta]

Lucky for me, I never said that sentence.

Well what are you saying then? That porn is more degrading to women than men? My reply fits either way, so I don't see the need to split hairs over semantics.

No, it doesn't fit with what I'm saying, since I'm making a statistical and relative argument, and thus your point about me "generalizing" doesn't make sense anymore.

Actually it makes perfect sense. To make a statistical argument you need data to make generalizations. You don't have any and you won't find any.

Read this, it is a pretty good explanation of the ways porn can be good for women.

I know you don't like porn because you are scared by it. The acts depicted seem unfamiliar and dirty. But the bigger issue you identify (and one I agree with) is mostly that it's just pretty boring and mechanical.

[Mikes]

You literally have no idea about this, you just made that up. You have no evidence whatsoever and no grounds to make a statistical claim about majorities and minorities. Anal can be fun and easy and doesn't have to be painful. Swallowing semen isn't any different than licking a ****. It tastes funny, you get used to it.

The physical equipment doesn't differ that much. I would wager that 95% of women (and heck, men) would enjoy skillfully done anal.

For perspective, by far the most commonly reported sex fantasy among women is the rape fantasy. This doesn't mean women want to be raped, but it should give you some insight into the fact that women are just about as voracious and ****ed up as men are, they're just taught to be quieter about it.

From my experience it's kind of like ice cream. Some people like vanilla, some chocolate, some hate strawberry... others don't even want to try hazelnut.

Anyways... as long as both partners trust each other and actually want to give pleasure as much as  receive it exploration of what both actually do enjoy is usually fun.


Luis Dias appears to not only have a very narrow view of porn, but of sexuality in general.

[Mikes]

Lucky for me, I never said that sentence.

Well what are you saying then? That porn is more degrading to women than men? My reply fits either way, so I don't see the need to split hairs over semantics.

No, it doesn't fit with what I'm saying, since I'm making a statistical and relative argument, and thus your point about me "generalizing" doesn't make sense anymore.

If you are making a statistical argument you need to cite sources. You do not.

You are just making some wierd claims.
If what you are say is true, then i must be a statistical anamoly because none of the women i have been with conform to your (from my perspective very narrow and prudish) view of women even in the tiniest bit.
(Heck i even had a girlfriend once who used to send me porn as part of well... i guess you could call it fore-fore-play LOL. Very tasteful videos though, all of them.)

What you do not seem to get is that "giving pleasure" can be just as fun and satisfying as receiving. That's the basis of a healthy sexual relationship as i understand it anyways.

P.S. Hope we are not transgressing any forum rules by where this discussion is going.