[headdie]

Call it Airwolf and bring back the Eighties!

[headdie]

I know there is an element of necrothreading here but i thought this is an appropriate article, which sums up my feeling on the initial topic of the thread

[jr2]

Yeah, I don't approve of being happy.  People have asked me what I think about it cause I'm in the military (heck, it's just the reserves and I haven't deployed so IDK what that has to do with much but I digress...) I just say "well, it's one less person that needs killing..." in other words, he got what was coming, but it's not really that big of a deal.  There are worse people around who just haven't had the opportunity / resources / determination that Bin Laden has had.

I try not to hate; instead it's more of a "well, you have crossed the line and will have to be eliminated" type of thing.  People who go around killing others without any justified reason (yes that can be debated I know) need to be removed from the picture before they continue what they have been doing.

This is all my personal opinion and feelings, before someone jumps down my throat and asks me to prove something or another.  If you disagree, well state your own opinion and if you really want, state your reasoning as well. 

[General Battuta]

Yeah I pretty much agree. Killing someone is always bad, but if it prevents a greater evil, the calculus works out.

[Luis Dias]

The idiocy on that article is plainly visible in the comments, where they take americans rejoicing over Osama's death in an equal footing to other people's rejoicing the terrorist attacks success.

Albeit there's obviously a comparison to be made and we should ponder about it, since these feelings are almost perfectly honest, in the sense that they seem to have been quite universal in both sides, the "equality" in it is astonishingly barbaric and stupid itself. There is no comparison between rejoicing the murder of a mass murderer who kept threatening "westerners", and rejoicing the death of thousands of people whose only crime was to live in a country deemed by Osama to be the big Satan.

Not that I enjoyed the rejoicing. I didn't rejoice, and I found those acclamations silly.

Destroy an important tower for the powers of theocracy inside Theran and let's see if americans rejoice too.

[PsychoLandlord]

The same here. I never reveled in or celebrated the death itself, nor did I cheer or party when the announcement was made, but I did feel a certain sense of, well, relief I suppose, that this man that had committed the atrocities against my home was now out of the picture. I will admit however, that at the national level, I did give into the feeling of revenge. I'm not one for personal vengeance, but when it comes to nations it is impossible to turn the other cheek in the face of attack. I wont spout bull**** about "brought to Justice," but knowing that he payed for it did give me a small bit of satisfaction.

[Nuclear1]

Bloodlust, vengeance, and taking joy in death are the same, no matter who's doing it.  I had a debate not too long ago about this same topic:

It's everyone's theory that the terrorists are evil and want to destroy our way of life and our beliefs, but it seems everyone here who wants to see a man's corpse desecrated is doing that themselves.

Osama was an evil man, I'm not arguing that. But he didn't have very far to fall to become evil. We, however, as the beacon of human rights and civilization we make ourselves out to be, have a hell of a long way to fall. Terrorists can't make us do that by knocking down buildings and killing innocent people. We can.

People who succumb to bloodlust and vengeance under the guise of some 'justice' are accomplishing these extremists' goals for them. I'm sure as hell not going to sit back and watch my former brothers in arms and fellow citizens who have died over the years to fight this evil have their memories soiled and dishonored by this savagery.

Destroy an important tower for the powers of theocracy inside Theran and let's see if americans rejoice too

I bet you there'll be a small group of Americans who do.  And they'll be the ones who make the news.  Just like the minority of people in the Middle East who cheered 9/11 made the news.

You have to realize that the people who were rejoicing over 9/11 and other extremist acts did so because they believe America to be the enemy, and when their enemy was hurt, they took joy in that.  They believe America to be responsible for countless atrocities across the Middle East.

We view Osama as evil and responsible for horrific acts all around the world.  He died, and we rejoiced in it.  How exactly is that different?

[headdie]

The validity of the article is in its criticism of celebrating death.  Also disagree that the magnitude is different.  the World Trade Center attack was a tragedy to the western world due to the monumental loss of life through a single act.  The killing of Bin Laden is monumental to the Islamic world in particular to supporters of the Jihad because Bin Laden is somewhere in the region of the Pope to roman catholics in symbolic power and his death at the hands of American Special Forces is comparable to sending assassins after the Pope or the President of the United States to them

[Nuke]

reports of the people in front of the white house who celebrated bin laden's death somewhat reminded me of all the news reports of mid eastern celebrations of terrorist attacks. no level of technology, understanding, or civility will be able to defeat human nature. we will see their whackjobs on the news and judge them as a whole based on it, and they will do the same to us. this is something that should be expected.

[Luis Dias]

I bet you there'll be a small group of Americans who do.  And they'll be the ones who make the news.  Just like the minority of people in the Middle East who cheered 9/11 made the news.

Yeah, I realise that this is pretty possible. But I hope that you understand that there is a difference between the potential and the actual. And that the events that happened are *not* the same.

You have to realize that the people who were rejoicing over 9/11 and other extremist acts did so because they believe America to be the enemy, and when their enemy was hurt, they took joy in that.  They believe America to be responsible for countless atrocities across the Middle East.

Of course I realise this. The problem is that in 911, no one who was actually "responsible" for any particular atrocity against the "muslim world" did in fact die. Well, perhaps except some person or another in the pentagon.

We view Osama as evil and responsible for horrific acts all around the world.  He died, and we rejoiced in it.  How exactly is that different?

Why do you say "we"? Did you rejoice? You know I didn't, so what are you talking about?

If you can't see the difference of killing the most wanted terrorist (warning for the on lookers, I did not say the most "influent") in the earth, with an astonishing criminal record and killing thousands of innocent civilians, then what else could I ever say to you?

IOW, you are the one with all the work still ahead of you, if you want to persuade me that there is no difference at all.

[Nuclear1]

Again, it's a matter of perspective.  They (the people who cheered 9/11) did think most Americans were responsible for the atrocities across the Middle East, the way a lot of Americans think all Muslims are terrorists.

No need to get personal on this.  I'm not insulting you.  I used "we" to mean as a whole.

[Mars]

Again, it's a matter of perspective.  They (the people who cheered 9/11) did think most Americans were responsible for the atrocities across the Middle East, the way a lot of Americans think all Muslims are terrorists.

No need to get personal on this.  I'm not insulting you.  I used "we" to mean as a whole.

It's totally different. If someone in the Middle East wants to celebrate killing a coalition soldier, or one of our leaders; then that would be equivalent to celebrating Osama's death.

To be honest, I don't have a problem with that. Not compared to celebrating the deaths of thousands of civillians.

[headdie]

Again, it's a matter of perspective.  They (the people who cheered 9/11) did think most Americans were responsible for the atrocities across the Middle East, the way a lot of Americans think all Muslims are terrorists.

No need to get personal on this.  I'm not insulting you.  I used "we" to mean as a whole.

It's totally different. If someone in the Middle East wants to celebrate killing a coalition soldier, or one of our leaders; then that would be equivalent to celebrating Osama's death.

To be honest, I don't have a problem with that. Not compared to celebrating the deaths of thousands of civillians.

then again the civilians that dies in the attacks were cogs in the machinery of capitalism which is an aspect of Western society they really don't like and would be the equivalent of us bombing a tank factory.  Part of the problem here is the difference in culture mixed with propaganda on both sides, the world trade center attack was has and imho correctly as a crime against humanity for the loss of life involved.  to the Jihadists as i say it was like bombing one of the main war factories for the western powers, yes the loss of life was tragic but in their own way the people in the towers were contributing to the assault the West is making on their culture.  it is a difficult concept at times to get your head round but it is an understanding that is needed to understand the how the War on Terror and the Jihadist movement against the West is panning out.

[Locutus of Borg]

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/08/opinion/08dowd.html?_r=1&ref=maureendowd

[zookeeper]

It's bollocks to claim that the bunch of palestinians who apparently celebrated 9/11 were rejoicing the death of thousands of civilians while the bunch of americans who celebrated Osama's death were merely rejoicing that he can't do bad things anymore. Isn't it pretty obvious that the palestinians were rejoicing that the USA got slapped in the face just like the americans were rejoicing that the terrorists got slapped in the face? The USA and the terrorists are both seen as adversaries which do evil on a massive scale, cannot be defeated and which the average person can't do anything about, hence the celebration on both sides being primarily about the abstract notion of bad guys getting put in their place by good guys, not about the specifics of what happened and to whom.

That's not to say it isn't entirely correct to say that the celebrating people are actually celebrating the specifics, but I'm merely arguing against the double standard here.

[Mongoose]

No, it's bollocks to claim that the two are even remotely morally equivalent.  That Times article is dead on.

[Nuclear1]

No, it's bollocks to claim that the two are even remotely morally equivalent.  That Times article is dead on.

From the view of Arabs who believe they're suffering the oppression of the capitalist West, yeah, seeing their enemy hurt would be about the same as us seeing our terrorist enemy hurt.

[Mars]

No, it's bollocks to claim that the two are even remotely morally equivalent.  That Times article is dead on.

From the view of Arabs who believe they're suffering the oppression of the capitalist West, yeah, seeing their enemy hurt would be about the same as us seeing our terrorist enemy hurt.

Like I said, if they killed the president or something, and celebrated, it would be equivalent.

[Mongoose]

No, it's bollocks to claim that the two are even remotely morally equivalent.  That Times article is dead on.

From the view of Arabs who believe they're suffering the oppression of the capitalist West, yeah, seeing their enemy hurt would be about the same as us seeing our terrorist enemy hurt.

Like I said, if they killed the president or something, and celebrated, it would be equivalent.

Yes, exactly.  I'd probably be outraged at that sort of celebration myself, but I'd at least recognize that they have a leg to stand on.  Killing a governmental or military leader, someone directly invested in national policy, is a purposeful act of war.  Killing innocent civilians is pure evil.

[Nuclear1]

Alright, let me explain.

We've spent ten years trying to get the guy who planned and executed 9/11.  When we finally, after a lot of death and time, killed him, we celebrated. 

The Arabs who hate the West believe they've waited years to get at the people who they believe have hurt them.  So, 9/11 happens, they cheer.

Yes, exactly.  I'd probably be outraged at that sort of celebration myself, but I'd at least recognize that they have a leg to stand on.  Killing a governmental or military leader, someone directly invested in national policy, is a purposeful act of war.  Killing innocent civilians is pure evil.

No different than Americans who want to kill all Muslims.  There's plenty of those.