Author Topic: favourite canon fighters.  (Read 17786 times)

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Offline Hades

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Re: favourite canon fighters.
The Eri turns as fast as the herc mk2 and will trounce Ares/mk2s in fights with ease.

The Ares, and stuff like it, that's too heavy, is only good against crappy AI on crappy difficulties. Let alone vs people..
It does have its uses as anti-convoy, anti-cruiser, and capital-ship harassment, but dogfighting is just not for it, since it's more of a fighter/bomber than a fighter.
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----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Re: favourite canon fighters.
It makes a good trebuchet platform, as proven in WiH, and has enough energy to feed Maxim for longer than most. That's about it.
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Offline Marcov

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Re: favourite canon fighters.
The Eri turns as fast as the herc mk2 and will trounce Ares/mk2s in fights with ease.

The Ares, and stuff like it, that's too heavy, is only good against crappy AI on crappy difficulties. Let alone vs people..

Uh...I think you're a bit underestimating the Ares here. Although it has crappy flexibility the super armor nearly makes up for it plus a tremendous load of firepower. Though indeed it may very well lose to people, I think a skilled enough player can win even on Hard vs. Dragons with the Ares.
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Re: favourite canon fighters.
The Eri turns as fast as the herc mk2 and will trounce Ares/mk2s in fights with ease.

The Ares, and stuff like it, that's too heavy, is only good against crappy AI on crappy difficulties. Let alone vs people..

Uh...I think you're a bit underestimating the Ares here. Although it has crappy flexibility the super armor nearly makes up for it plus a tremendous load of firepower. Though indeed it may very well lose to people, I think a skilled enough player can win even on Hard vs. Dragons with the Ares.

Yeah, I love the Ares (disclaimer: I don't do multiplayer, as I'm a bit of a misanthrope  :p ). Sure, it's a brick, but it plays its role well. You just have to make sure you have the right secondary weapons for what you'll be up against and make sure you're incredibly precise with your primaries, since you won't get too many chances at having enemies in your crosshairs. If things leave you alone for a few seconds, you can cause a lot of havoc. In the last few retail missions, it was a lifesaver. Sit in the middle of the engagement area, shunt all engine power to shields, and splatter everything with Trebs. Since you're standing still, anything that wants to attack you is gonna be coming straight at you - situational awareness and some well-placed Kaysers will drive off attackers, and as they run you can ram some Harpoons or Tornadoes into them as they flee.

It's not quite as exciting as flying a Perseus, zipping around the battlefield and dogfighting, but it works well enough. Plus, it seems the AI wingmen do well in Ares; you can load them up with Tornados and they'll lay the smackdown on anything dumb enough to come within range.

 

Offline Hades

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Re: favourite canon fighters.
The Eri turns as fast as the herc mk2 and will trounce Ares/mk2s in fights with ease.

The Ares, and stuff like it, that's too heavy, is only good against crappy AI on crappy difficulties. Let alone vs people..

Uh...I think you're a bit underestimating the Ares here. Although it has crappy flexibility the super armor nearly makes up for it plus a tremendous load of firepower. Though indeed it may very well lose to people, I think a skilled enough player can win even on Hard vs. Dragons with the Ares.
No, he's not underestimating the Ares. QuantumDelta has played this game for far longer than either of us, so he knows what he is talking about. Winning against a Dragon on hard with retail AI isn't much of an accomplishment, either. I can do that with an Ursa on retail insane, by hitting them with Helios bombs.
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: favourite canon fighters.
No, he's not underestimating the Ares. QuantumDelta has played this game for far longer than either of us, so he knows what he is talking about. Winning against a Dragon on hard with retail AI isn't much of an accomplishment, either. I can do that with an Ursa on retail insane, by hitting them with Helios bombs.

Helios doesn't do sufficient shield damage, try again.
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Offline Timerlane

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Re: favourite canon fighters.
The increased lethality of FS2 player-primaries and secondaries make it a lot harder to have "one fighter to rule them all", I think, especially on harder difficulty levels.

The Herc in FS1 could generally muddle through just about anything, IMO, due to the lower damage and energy usage of primaries and FS1 missiles(just dump more gun energy into shields; not like you're really spending it, unless you're running D. Advs or Banshees). Nowadays, a couple of salvos of Prom-S or Kayser will all but deplete the toughest of fighter shield quadrants, and on the flip side, they consume 3-4x as much energy per shot, making it harder for heavier craft to simply lean on their shield/energy durability in the middle of a multi-ship furball. Shivan guns are still weak enough to make heavier fighters feel tough, but the perception falls apart once you start fighting against other T/V fighters("...But Hate the Traitor" and much of the NTF arc, for example; imagine the NTF fighters actually had Prom-Ses instead of the FS1-esqe output Subachs and Prom-Rs).

 
Re: favourite canon fighters.
......Eh?
Although it's quite possible I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure the Prom and Prom S are pretty close, as is their effect on shields and hull, and Banshee = Kayser.

Perhaps you played FS1 on easier difficulties?

You're quite right though, heavy fighters are ****, and useless in actual combat, they're support/command and control craft, they don't do space superiority.
Athena(Bomber), Ares, etc, are for de-turreting/killing off subsystems/killing things from long-ass-ranged.

Space superiority is left to the lights, the Eri, Tauret and Herc mk2 are about the only ones that bridge the gap.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: favourite canon fighters.
Although it's quite possible I'm wrong, I'm pretty sure the Prom and Prom S are pretty close, as is their effect on shields and hull, and Banshee = Kayser.

The original Prom is actually superior to the Prom S in a number of ways, but the Kayser beats the crap out of the Banshee on its improved rate of fire and faster moving shots.
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Offline Commander Zane

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Re: favourite canon fighters.
The original Prom is actually superior to the Prom S in a number of ways
:wtf:

Quote from: Prometheus table
Range: 900 m

Rate of Fire: 3.33 shots per second

Velocity: 450 ms

Base Damage: 20

Armor Damage: Full+ 26
Shield Damage: Average 14
Subsystem Damage: Poor 7

Energy Usage: 0.40

Quote from: Prometheus S table
Range: 1500 m

Rate of Fire: 2.86 shots per second

Velocity: 750 ms

Base Damage: 30

Armor Damage: Very Good 27
Shield Damage: Full 30
Subsystem Damage: Poor 10.5

Energy Usage: 1.00

Original Prometheus has a higher Rate of Fire but is slower, shorter ranged, and less damaging in every damage type.
Well you're right since being better in one thing is a number.

Edit: Pfft silly me I forgot the Wiki lists the base damage for the FS1 Prometheus wrong.
But in seriousness its one actual advantage is the lower energy use per shot, which I had forgot about.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 01:58:06 pm by Commander Zane »

 

Offline Deadly in a Shadow

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Re: favourite canon fighters.
The original Prom is actually superior to the Prom S in a number of ways
:wtf:

Quote from: Prometheus table
Range: 900 m

Rate of Fire: 3.33 shots per second

Velocity: 450 ms

Base Damage: 26

Armor Damage: Full 26
Shield Damage: Average 14
Subsystem Damage: Poor 7

Quote from: Prometheus S table
Range: 1500 m

Rate of Fire: 2.86 shots per second

Velocity: 750 ms

Base Damage: 30

Armor Damage: Very Good 27
Shield Damage: Full 30
Subsystem Damage: Poor 10.5

Original Prometheus has a higher Rate of Fire but is slower, shorter ranged, and less damaging in every damage type.
Well you're right since being better in one thing is a number.
Just want to add: Prometheus S projectiles are looking cooler. And I love the sound from the S more....
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: favourite canon fighters.
Original Prometheus has a higher Rate of Fire but is slower, shorter ranged, and less damaging in every damage type.
Well you're right since being better in one thing is a number.

Edit: Pfft silly me I forgot the Wiki lists the base damage for the FS1 Prometheus wrong.
But in seriousness its one actual advantage is the lower energy use per shot, which I had forgot about.

Ah, child, but that one RoF difference outmodes the damage difference. Same for energy usage. A totality of sums, not a bunch meaningless numbers scattered about.
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Offline Commander Zane

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Re: favourite canon fighters.
The difference is minute, doesn't help that it does just less than half the shield damage the Prometheus S does per shot,
Start throwing calculations into the mix. Fire each weapon for a full minute and get the presumed totals.

199.8 shots with the Prometheus for 60 seconds:

5,194.8 hull damage
2,797.2 shield damage
1,398.6 subsystem damage

171.6 shots with the Prometheus S for 60 seconds:

4,633.2 hull damage
5,148 shield damage
1,201.2 subsystem damage

Just...wow. The difference compared to hull and subsystem damage is immense despite the slower Rate of Fire, and in this game shields have higher ratings than hull, and since you need those to go away so you can actually damage the hull....The Prometheus S, regardless of its lower Rate of Fire is going to be taking hull points off of a target long before the original Prometheus does.

 

Offline Timerlane

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Re: favourite canon fighters.
The Prom-S is also supremely accurate, thanks to the 100ms extra velocity over the Kayser/Banshee(650), where the Prom was only Subach-speed at 450. Not only do you have 1.5k range, the shots move fast enough for it to be potentially useful(lolCirce). I'd also point out that per energy/shot, the Prom-S is slightly more efficient than the Maxim at hull damage(same 1.0 energy, 1 point more hull damage), so as long as you're not in a hurry, the Prom-S is also a quite usable anti-cruiser cannon that still outranges almost all turrets except Terran Huge, Long Range Flak, and AA beams.

and Banshee = Kayser.
Despite the Techroom fluff, Banshee's hull damage(26 x .7 = 18.2) is poor/average for the energy and low RoF, where the Kayser is more of a true super-gun(full 28 hull damage, only slightly less vs shields, and much faster-firing), second only to the Maxim(kind of the Mekhu to the Prom-S's Subach). Not a big deal against Shivan and Vasudan hulls(at least not bombers), and lighter Terran fare like Valkyries, but for FS1-era(FSPort), I virtually always go with the Avenger(or Prom+Leech on rare occasions). Avenger has slightly better Shield DPS than the Prom, and 75ms faster shot velocity.

 

Offline IronBeer

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Re: favourite canon fighters.
...I virtually always go with the Avenger(or Prom+Leech on rare occasions). Avenger has slightly better Shield DPS than the Prom, and 75ms faster shot velocity.
On my last (admittedly non-pro, moderate-difficulty) playthrough of FSPort and its progeny, I actually found that Avenger+Banshee was actually a pretty winning combo. The Avenger basically never needs to stop firing, even if I burn all my gun energy with the Banshee, and the setup can bulldoze through shields in pretty quick order.
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Offline Timerlane

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Re: favourite canon fighters.
True, though a Banshee's hull damage per shot is about the same an Avenger shot; I'd tend call it a wash. Bites through the shields a little faster, but loses some DPS against the hull(and shield DPS really dropping off if you ever miss with the rather slow-firing Banshee).

I only like the Leech+Prom(for matching shot speeds) for the fact that I do see some noticeable reduction of ABing from Valks and Ulys(ST:R's Exodus mission), which can make them a little easier to pin down and kill(at least for a Herc) compared to just going for straight damage.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 05:20:59 pm by Timerlane »

 
Re: favourite canon fighters.
Aww not this **** again.....
Guys, burst damage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "DPS"
"Neutrality means that you don't really care, cuz the struggle goes on even when you're not there: Blind and unaware."

"We still believe in all the things that we stood by before,
and after everything we've seen here maybe even more.
I know we're not the only ones, and we were not the first,
and unapologetically we'll stand behind each word."

 

Offline Timerlane

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Re: favourite canon fighters.
I mostly agree, but the fact is that Banshees, especially linked Banshees, are painfully slow firing(worse than the Prom-S), so unless you're a extremely consistent shot, you may well be shooting yourself in the foot and giving the enemy time to recharge/rebalance shields between hits. It just doesn't feel "worth it", especially considering the lack of damage against hulls.

The Avenger is just better balanced overall(along with the speed-accuracy bonus over the Prom), and the fact that it has no real drain on your gun energy doesn't hurt, either.

EDIT: And honestly, FS1 primaries really were more rapid-fire, damage-over-time guns as a whole, rather than the heavier damage per-shot guns that the Prom-S and Kayser arguably are(which goes right back to my first post, and how the game style has arguably changed from FS1 to 2, and thus fighter capabilities relative to the game).
« Last Edit: June 30, 2011, 06:33:48 pm by Timerlane »

 

Offline Trivial Psychic

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Re: favourite canon fighters.
Perhaps this Prom vs. PromS, Banshee vs. Kayser discussion should be moved to another thread.  This is supposed to be a discussion about fighters and not the weapons they carry.
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Offline Mars

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Re: favourite canon fighters.
Perhaps this Prom vs. PromS, Banshee vs. Kayser discussion should be moved to another thread.  This is supposed to be a discussion about fighters and not the weapons they carry.

Compatible weapons are a crucial part of fighter preference. The fact that it's in two different games hardly matters, since both are canon and therefore pertinent to the discussion.