[Nemesis6]

May 25, 2011

Whatever you think about atheists -- good, bad, mixed, indifferent -- this story should seriously trouble you.

Damon Fowler, an atheist student at Bastrop High School in Louisiana, was about to graduate. His public school was planning to have a prayer as part of the graduation ceremony: as they traditionally did, as so many public schools around the country do every year. But Fowler -- knowing that government-sponsored prayer in the public schools is unconstitutional and legally forbidden -- contacted the school superintendent to let him know that he opposed the prayer, and would be contacting the ACLU if it happened. The school -- at first, anyway -- agreed, and canceled the prayer.

Then Fowler's name, and his role in this incident, was leaked. As a direct result:

    1) Fowler has been hounded, pilloried, and ostracized by his community.

    2) One of Fowler's teachers has publicly demeaned him.

    3) Fowler has been physically threatened. Students have threatened to "jump him" at graduation practice, and he has received multiple threats of bodily harm, and even death threats.

    4) Fowler's parents have cut off his financial support, kicked him out of the house, and thrown his belongings onto the front porch.

Oh, and by the way? They went ahead and had the graduation prayer anyway.

http://www.alternet.org/belief/151086/high_school_student_stands_up_against_prayer_at_public_school_and_is_ostracized,_demeaned_and_threatened/?page=entire

Basically, when people ask "what's the harm?" regarding Christianity, this is pretty much it. There's a lot more to this article: Links to the guy's initial post on reddit, links to videos of the event, etc. I wonder how much better it gets once you go north, out of the bible-belt I mean.

[General Battuta]

Today in stupid generalizations that help create the very problems they're condemning

[Luis Dias]

Yeah, because this doesn't happen in a lot of schools, and this kind of incidents (which I've seen multiple reports from many parts of your country btw) isn't really important. What does it matter if someone is bullyied out of his own life by all the community and even his own parents, just by trying to get the school to stick to its constitutional rights?

No, what is important is not to demean religion. Because that's the real danger here, innit?

[Snail]

This is why I'm glad to be in Blighty.

[General Battuta]

I don't see a single problem here that can be blamed on Christianity. It's like blaming fevers for disease.

[Snail]

guess the problem is stupid people.

[Dilmah G]

I'd not like to be mistaken for defending any particular religion here, I'm not so religious myself, but what did Fowler honestly expect to achieve with this? If he had beef with a prayer, then perhaps he could've done the smart thing and just kept his mouth shut whilst everyone who wished to pray, well, prayed.

I would have publicly called this bloke a right wanker if he went to my school and did that, it seems he's being a twat simply for the sake of being a twat to me.  The prayer would not have physically harmed him in any way, shape, or form. The prayer would not have had any lasting psychological effects on him, and ultimately, it matters absolutely 0 as to whether the bloody prayer is read out or not to his health and wellbeing. I rarely advocate withholding a stand against something you believe in, but if he had a real problem with religion in a public institution, trying to make some kind of stand at your graduation where people seem to feel rather strongly about this sort of thing is not what I would call the smartest thing in the world to do.

EDIT: Because Dilmah is a grammatical legend

[Qent]

My suspicion is that he got exactly what he was aiming for, and that the news report tries to make the persecution a response to his (lack of) religion, rather than to his making a scene. But only having the report to go on, I'm only speculating.

[Luis Dias]

Yeah, and what's with Rosa Parks too? What an asshole she was.

I mean, wow. Reading all you guys it's like we are still living in the 13th century.


And of course blame it on stupid people. All the benefits of religion have everything to do with it, and all its negatives are humans' fault. And there's nothing wrong with that human reasoning too, since it's consistent with the thought that humans are stupid  .

[Dilmah G]

Mate, Rosa Parks was subject to discrimination that you couldn't dream of. Read what I posted again, I make the point that there is absolutely 0 threat to Fowler's wellbeing by allowing the prayer to be read. In Rosa Parks' case, there was indeed such an impact as a result of discrimination.

And man, I didn't say **** about any benefits of religion.

My suspicion is that he got exactly what he was aiming for, and that the news report tries to make the persecution a response to his (lack of) religion, rather than to his making a scene. But only having the report to go on, I'm only speculating.

Yeah, don't know for sure man.

[Flipside]

It's awkward because many Christians see the 'seperation of Church and State' as being a discrimination against them, especially when it can be end-run by saying you are an Atheist, and therefore there is no Church to seperate. So an atheist can say "It is my moral, non-religion belief that X should be banned", and there's still seperation, but a Christian stating the same view as a Religious belief hits a brick wall. In that respect, it's makes a tricky road to walk.

When I go to Church for weddings etc, I don't make a scene, I just sit silent during the Lord's prayer, or occasionally mumble "We are the Borg, your technological and biological distinctiveness will be added to our own. From this point onwards you exist to service....us. Resistance is futile. Amen", but only if I had a bad day.

I also see the Atheists point of view, that it is a creeping situation, where prayers for a specific belief system are being slotted into multi-cultural systems and that is wrong. On balance, I think it's more the small-mindedness of the people involved, rather than religion itself that is to blame here.

[Qent]

Yeah, and what's with Rosa Parks too? What an asshole she was.

Well if you want me to make that comparison... I'd say it's as if Rosa Parks boarded a bus in Berkeley today while shouting at the bus driver for discriminating against her, and then a story appeared in the paper about how racism is such a huge problem.

[Luis Dias]

Mate, Rosa Parks was subject to discrimination that you couldn't dream of. Read what I posted again, I make the point that there is absolutely 0 threat to Fowler's wellbeing by allowing the prayer to be read. In Rosa Parks' case, there was indeed such an impact as a result of discrimination.

I'm sure many people also thought that Rosa Parks was just being silly and trying to make an avoidable scene by trying to get a seat on a white bus. So you are just displaying that people never really change over the generations, "but that's totally different". Yeah, I'm sure many people said the same back then, perhaps even starting with "I like black people, I have black friends but that was totally innapropriate".


I just can't understand what is it so much innapropriate about having a belief that the society would be better off if religion wouldn't be so intertwined with the state, and acting in that regard. He didn't make a scene. He was discreet, until someone leaked him off.

The reaction of all the community and even his folks are exactly what proves the point that he was trying to make.

I'm sorry to say but all of your reaction stirs in me the exact feeling I have when I hear the phrase "but she was asking for it with that provocative dress", wrt a rape reporting.

Shame on you.

[quot€]And man, I didn't say **** about any benefits of religion. [/quote]

So don't reply to it.

[Flipside]

To be fair, atheists are heavily ostracised in certain areas of the US. My brother went to a wedding in the US and was criticised for being Atheist. When he stated that he had as much right to an opinion as anyone else, he was told that 'Freedom of Speech' only applied to Americans. It's not like that all over, I'd like to stress, but that mentality does exist.

[Luis Dias]

Yeah, and what's with Rosa Parks too? What an asshole she was.

Well if you want me to make that comparison... I'd say it's as if Rosa Parks boarded a bus in Berkeley today while shouting at the bus driver for discriminating against her, and then a story appeared in the paper about how racism is such a huge problem.

Except that the shouting was made by an anonymous passerby, who watched with delight to the ensuing beating. But that's just a detail, right?

[Qent]

Except that the shouting was made by an anonymous passerby, who watched with delight to the ensuing beating. But that's just a detail, right?

Huh?



No, as if Rosa were. How did I say that at all? :/

[Luis Dias]

Read the report again. He was very discreet. Problems only arose when his name was leaked.

Why was it leaked? And for what? And now a young person has his own future destroyed, but that's okay because he was asking for it, for being such a baby cry, right?

[mjn.mixael]

What he did was 'meh'. He could have just ignored it and moved on, because a prayer wouldn't have hurt him in the slightest. Still seems to me that he was doing it just to be (as previously stated) a twat.

What the people/town did was bad. There is no Biblical basis for that kind of behavior.

Your generalization downright pisses me off. YOU are the problem. YOU are  the reason there is still discrimination on both sides. Stop labeling me a 'Christian' and actually learn what I believe (if you could be arsed to care enough). Isn't that the beating heart of all battles against racisim and sexism too? I do missions work on local campuses. I get discriminated against all the time by atheists. But I do not apply their actions to 'American Atheism'. If I did? Well, I certainly wouldn't be able to have friendly conversations with half of HLP, now would I?

Lastly, I'll pay more attention to 'separation of church and state' when it is no longer just a rule to shut people up. (AKA, when references to God are removed from all governmental documents and tender.) Because like it or not, the entire world's worth of cultures are pretty much all based heavily on one religion or another.

[Luis Dias]

Yeah, a young student was just thrown out of his life for trying to get his school to obey the constitution, but I am the problem here.

No, sorry, you are suffering heavily from the Dunning–Kruger effect, it's the only way I can even square it.

I do missions work on local campuses. I get discriminated against all the time by atheists.

Exactly how? Please enlighten the audience how your situation is comparable.

But I do not apply their actions to 'American Atheism'. If I did? Well, I certainly wouldn't be able to have friendly conversations with half of HLP, now would I?

Why not? Are you unable to differentiate between "american atheism" and "atheists"? One is a sociological phenomena, the other is actual people. You can speak to people.

Lastly, I'll pay more attention to 'separation of church and state' when it is no longer just a rule to shut people up

It's your prerrogative, you are free to care zero. You should understand that others have their own prerrogatives, and their own reasons.

[General Battuta]

Why not? Are you unable to differentiate between "american atheism" and "atheists"?

ahahahahahahahahahhaha