Author Topic: SW: TOR  (Read 5136 times)

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Offline TwentyPercentCooler

  • Operates at 375 kelvin
  • 28
If MMOs aren't your thing, TrashMan, no one's forcing you to play them. But some of us happen to enjoy them for our own reasons. As I mentioned in my previous post, I played WoW for so long because I was with a great group of people and we enjoyed the game together. Plus, I was on a role-playing server and we were a pretty active force in the role-playing community. We didn't use our imaginations to cover up some terrible crap, we used our imaginations to build our own stories and our own world within the world, so to speak. Blizzard (mostly) gave us the tools and the sandbox, we made it ours. That just can't happen in a single-player RPG like Skyrim or Oblivion (which, for the record, I strongly dislike, even with mods); sure, there's a story in those games, but it's not being shared with other people, which, in my mind, is kind of the point of an MMO in the first place. My point is, I didn't think that I was being subjected to "drudgery," and when I eventually did start to feel that way, I quit the game, pure and simple.

 

Offline newman

  • 211
The fact that 10$ a month really isn't a lot considering entertainment prices is true. I could certainly afford that, it's not an issue. What is the issue, for me, is the annoyance this causes me. Do I try some other game now? Do I read a book? But, I already paid for this month's subscription, and an inner voice is saying it's inefficient to not use it. Plus another monthly bill kinda is annoying. But even putting all that aside, ok, they're charging 10$ (or whatever) a month and we've accepted that. I still don't think it's fair to charge 55€ (according to their site) for just the basic edition of the game, not when you're going to keep charging people. I bought Skyrim for roughly that much, iirc, and it's mine. I don't have to keep paying for the pleasure of playing it.

A fair scheme, for me, is either a one-time higher price like this then no subscription fees, or a game that gets most of it's revenue from subscription fees but is pretty cheap to buy initially. You could charge for DLC and small addon content, I guess, but at that price the game is yours and you should be able to play it for a while no matter what. Or you get the game cheap and pay an additional fee per month. I still think Guild Wars had the best payment scheme of all; you bought the game and it was yours forever. Every once in a while they released a huge add-on that added a whole continent and more classes, etc, and if you wanted to join in on that fun you'd have to buy it. They didn't annoy the player with monthly subscriptions, while avoiding the f2p pitfall of trying to sifon an additional 2 cents off a player at every turn, because he wanted a 2% stronger weapon.
You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here! - Jayne Cobb

 

Offline Mikes

  • 29
... once you take that first step and acknowledge that sh*t is still sh*t... even when you do it with other people... you can't really go back to MMOs anymore.

Anyways, MMOs are dead, long live Coop gaming. That's what I do now with the people I used to play MMOs with anyways... and guess what? A game with proper gameplay is helluva lot more fun to enjoy with friends.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 05:08:15 am by Mikes »

 
Coop gaming?
What the actual ****.
Coop is boring as balls, you play through once, or twice, get all the stupid little achievements and work out the crappy gimmicks (in 5 minutes) that are 'designed to keep your attention (for x hours)' and then you're done. gimme TvT objective based, team-work required combat.

MMOs are far from dead.
If a game ever manages to recreate what I had in Neocron without being MMO, I'll accept your bull, until then, just shut up. You could not be more wrong.
"Neutrality means that you don't really care, cuz the struggle goes on even when you're not there: Blind and unaware."

"We still believe in all the things that we stood by before,
and after everything we've seen here maybe even more.
I know we're not the only ones, and we were not the first,
and unapologetically we'll stand behind each word."

 

Offline MatthTheGeek

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Random question : why haven't we seen a console MMO yet ?
People are stupid, therefore anything popular is at best suspicious.

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Technically possible, but only from this generation of console onwards, some software houses have said they wanna do it, but no one has really gone for it yet.

Technologically, for the things that MMOs traditionally abuse on the PC (in terms of hardware) the console is still inferior (basically; RAM, HDD access speed, and CPU, in that order).

I would suggest that any console MMO would currently be quite weak in both visuals and scope on the current gen consoles compared to their PC counterparts, the big, current PC ones, certainly would never work on the console.
"Neutrality means that you don't really care, cuz the struggle goes on even when you're not there: Blind and unaware."

"We still believe in all the things that we stood by before,
and after everything we've seen here maybe even more.
I know we're not the only ones, and we were not the first,
and unapologetically we'll stand behind each word."

 

Offline Mikes

  • 29
Coop gaming?
What the actual ****.
Coop is boring as balls, you play through once, or twice, get all the stupid little achievements and work out the crappy gimmicks (in 5 minutes) that are 'designed to keep your attention (for x hours)' and then you're done. gimme TvT objective based, team-work required combat.

MMOs are far from dead.
If a game ever manages to recreate what I had in Neocron without being MMO, I'll accept your bull, until then, just shut up. You could not be more wrong.

See...  we actually enjoy what we play, we don't "work" for stuff.

When you are part of a community that isn't shackled to a single game, it gives you the freedom to plan which games you want to play together, i.e. which specific game with what group of people.
When you are done,... you move on to whatever else you want to play  then. Why would we "work" for anything in *GAMES* ;)? It's about enjoying the game together.

I realize that may be kind of hard to grasp for people absorbed in MMO gaming. Been there, done that, so I do know exactly how it feels. The point is...  you don't even realize on how much you are missing out on until you wake up, take stock and analyze what you actually *do* in that precious precious MMO for hours on end. It's a somewhat sobering experience.

 
You're projecting.
And replacing one kind of grind with another.

Coops do not last long enough to be worth money, and while they don't generally have repetitive content they are typically quite similar to dungeons and raids in MMOs.
I was talking more like Battlefield games, or perhaps even Battlegrounds in games like WoW.
Coop is terribad, and I have never found an exception beyond games like Time Crisis.
"Neutrality means that you don't really care, cuz the struggle goes on even when you're not there: Blind and unaware."

"We still believe in all the things that we stood by before,
and after everything we've seen here maybe even more.
I know we're not the only ones, and we were not the first,
and unapologetically we'll stand behind each word."

 

Offline Mikes

  • 29
You're projecting.
And replacing one kind of grind with another.

Coops do not last long enough to be worth money, and while they don't generally have repetitive content they are typically quite similar to dungeons and raids in MMOs.
I was talking more like Battlefield games, or perhaps even Battlegrounds in games like WoW.
Coop is terribad, and I have never found an exception beyond games like Time Crisis.

Frankly... rather sounds like you have no idea what you are talking about. ;)

Which games with full Coop Campaigns have you actually played?
If done right, it's an experience as rewarding as a well designed singleplayer game, only better, because you can play it together with friends.

I mean... just this fall/winter we did Portal 2, Magicka, Saints Row 3... and now Trine 2 is coming up. There is no MMO on the market that could offer an experience to even remotely compare to that...  frankly, not even to a single one of the aforementioned games, with MMO gameplay being so outright simplistic and repetitive. If you take the grind away there is surprisingly little content left in MMOs... and sorry... but I am way past the point where I would let anyone use grind to fool me into feeling some sort of *achievement*.

With huge amounts of grind being mandatory in MMOs... so people can play for hours on hours on hours on end without running out of "content", I simply don't even see the point of playing at all: "Content/Time spent playing" - wise MMOs are by design the worst games you will ever play. ... they have to be... to keep all those kids with too much time on their hands busy *fulltime* ...  no single developer could keep up with designing quality content for that demographic...  but in order to collect that monthly fee, they have to *somehow* .... hence, the sorry grind ridden state that mainstream MMOs are currently in.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 08:00:02 am by Mikes »

 
Portal 2 wasn't hard enough, was done in one sitting, magicka was the same gameplay as any basic 10+ year old mmo from before full 3D MMOs, Saints Row 3 I haven't tried yet in fairness, Trine 2 is going to be much the same as failicka.

MMO gameplay is not necessarily simple, though often relatively repetitive, but it's about the same as wandering around a dungeon CASTINGFIREBALL.

Grind isn't mandatory in MMOs, Neocron's grind was over in less than a day from lv1 to cap if you weren't a useless noob, after that it was all outpost battles and awesome extras, mostly PvP related.
WoWs content, especially if you were on the bleeding edge (which, is where I always was if I could help it, top 0.5% of the raiding community) was actually extremely hard, with everything needing to be mathed out or executed exactly, with very little margin for error.
You should have seen C'Thun, M'uru, Kael'Thas, Illidan or Archimonde pre-nerf, or all the hard-wall fights before people overgeared them.

You are spouting pointless stereotypical comments from an obviously uneducated or inexperienced view point, because MMOs can, and do have EVERYTHING any normal game has, and then more often than not include it in a social context.
The time I spent playing WoW, I do not regret and did not feel was 'pointless time', and the vast majority of it was spent being one of the PvPers that created many of my servers rank14s.

The act of grinding is also often obscured most of the time by either storyline driven content or team based content, it only tends to be grindy on transitional stages, which, people who do power-play basically skip, if you complete content so far ahead of time that you're waiting for more, you simply stop playing, or, in a game as big as wow, you go do other stuff (PvP/Achievements/etc).

Frankly there are MMOs where grind is the only thing going, but that doesn't mean they all are, not by a long shot.

So yea, no.
"Neutrality means that you don't really care, cuz the struggle goes on even when you're not there: Blind and unaware."

"We still believe in all the things that we stood by before,
and after everything we've seen here maybe even more.
I know we're not the only ones, and we were not the first,
and unapologetically we'll stand behind each word."

 

Offline Scotty

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How about everyone in here stop arguing their opinion on different style and formats of games as if they were undeniable fact and we all go back to enjoying whatever the **** it is we enjoy, hmmm?

 

Offline Mefustae

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Trine 2 is going to be much the same as failicka.

Failicka? Oh, you're so witty sir. You've made my day. Certianly, nobody has ever thought to merge to term 'fail' with the name of another thing thought to have failed. You should do standup! Or, at the very least, write a blog that nobody reads. You have made my day, sir. You have made my day.

 

Offline Hades

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How about everyone in here stop arguing their opinion on different style and formats of games as if they were undeniable fact and we all go back to enjoying whatever the **** it is we enjoy, hmmm?
Seriously. QD, you like MMOs, that's absolutely fantastic. Mikes, you like co-op games, power to ya. Trashman, you like being Trashman, which I'd compliment if I were a liar.

Let's all get back to business and back to the topic at hand, being ToR, instead of bickering over game genre taste.
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
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<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline LordMelvin

  • emacs ftw
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Let's all get back to business and back to the topic at hand, being ToR, instead of bickering over game genre taste.

But the open beta weekend closed back up, so what is there to discuss that's on topic right now?

Also, if I'm gonna play an em em oh, I'm gonna play an em em oh that doesn't have to divide itself up by shard, but that's just me.
Error: ls.rnd.sig.txt not found

 
Neocron was one such MMO! :D
Well, for the most part, the 'shards' were all regional..
"Neutrality means that you don't really care, cuz the struggle goes on even when you're not there: Blind and unaware."

"We still believe in all the things that we stood by before,
and after everything we've seen here maybe even more.
I know we're not the only ones, and we were not the first,
and unapologetically we'll stand behind each word."

 

Offline Mikes

  • 29
Portal 2 wasn't hard enough, was done in one sitting, magicka was the same gameplay as any basic 10+ year old mmo from before full 3D MMOs , Saints Row 3 I haven't tried yet in fairness, Trine 2 is going to be much the same as failicka.

Let's say you might want to analyze gameplay a little bit more.

You are spouting pointless stereotypical comments from an obviously uneducated or inexperienced view point, because MMOs can, and do have EVERYTHING any normal game has, and then more often than not include it in a social context.

Everything a normal game has?;) How long do you think WoW would last if they took the rewards away, mh?
Frankly... they have literally nothing that makes them worth playing (certainly not for as long as people keep playing)... other than the hooks of achievement and peer pressure.
With MMO's it's not the actual (repetitive, simplistic) gameplay, but the metagameplay, that gets people hooked... and the Meta is sadly still more or less the same as this: http://progressquest.com/.
The much lauded "social context" ironically also provides the reinforcement mechanisms.

How long would almost all of the current MMO's last if they had to compete on the merits of the actual gameplay experience?
Ask yourself honestly.

As for that lame comment about my "credentials"... I doubt many people have more MMO experience under their belt... as there were quite few MMOs before Everquest's release and boy I did play quite heavily, not just EQ but much of what came after. Take it from someone who's been there and who's seen the same thing in many fellow players over the years... most educated people with some rudimentary psychology knowledge eventually wake up to what MMO's are and how they work.

To be fair though... MMO's are not the worst (not by a long shot) exploitive game around anymore. That honor goes to the more recent webbased "social games" like Farmville, where gameplay takes yet another nosedive in favor of achievement and peer pressure. Same basic idea though: You use reward schemes / operant conditioning  to get away with (cheaply) producing lots of repetitive low quality content to keep people playing (and paying.)


How about everyone in here stop arguing their opinion on different style and formats of games as if they were undeniable fact and we all go back to enjoying whatever the **** it is we enjoy, hmmm?
Seriously. QD, you like MMOs, that's absolutely fantastic. Mikes, you like co-op games, power to ya. Trashman, you like being Trashman, which I'd compliment if I were a liar.

Let's all get back to business and back to the topic at hand, being ToR, instead of bickering over game genre taste.

It's more that I like "gaming" in general, but find that (traditional/typical) MMO's violate the very premise of good gameplay for above mentioned reasons.

As far as TOR goes I was simply hugely disappointed that Bioware still copied the same old paradigm with all its flaws.
They bolted a story onto it, true enough, and that may to some degree be a saving grace... if you could enjoy the story on it's own merits without dealing with the rotten MMO core beneath... yet somehow I doubt you will be able to. The whole point of MMO mechanics is to stretch out the content that you do have to take as long as possible to consume.

Not that I am misunderstood: I do not dislike the idea of MMOs in general. The contrary actually... I find games with huge communities and the possibility of social interaction hugely appealing. What i loathe is what passes as gameplay in current mainstream MMOs: i.e. using applied behavorism as a substitute for quality content. Worse, as far as gameplay goes the genre has become so utterly stagnant that it almost feels like dealing with the same game in a different "skin" everytime a new MMO gets released.

To my knowledge there is only one company trying to do anything different at this stage, Arena Net with Guildwars 2, and I'll buy their game on grounds of supporting innovation - even if I end up disliking that as well.

My folly is this... for about 20 years I have looked for a "massively multiplayer online (roleplaying) game" that is "worth playing" together with my friends - on merits of gameplay - and none of us have found it.
What we did find is the same greedy exploitive gameplay mechanic in pretty much everything that calls itself "MMO" these days.... and, thankfully, a world of non - MMO multiplayer games very much worth playing together. ;)
« Last Edit: December 10, 2011, 11:48:31 pm by Mikes »

 
Portal 2 wasn't hard enough, was done in one sitting, magicka was the same gameplay as any basic 10+ year old mmo from before full 3D MMOs , Saints Row 3 I haven't tried yet in fairness, Trine 2 is going to be much the same as failicka.

Let's say you might want to analyze gameplay a little bit more.
Nope, it's terribad. Same game play as any crappy dungeon crawler with a few gimmicks (that honestly, detract from the experience after the novelty wears off) and some movie references (which were appreciated but gets old so damn fast).
You are spouting pointless stereotypical comments from an obviously uneducated or inexperienced view point, because MMOs can, and do have EVERYTHING any normal game has, and then more often than not include it in a social context.

Everything a normal game has?;) How long do you think WoW would last if they took the rewards away, mh?
Frankly... they have literally nothing that makes them worth playing (certainly not for as long as people keep playing)... other than the hooks of achievement and peer pressure.
With MMO's it's not the actual (repetitive, simplistic) gameplay, but the metagameplay, that gets people hooked... and the Meta is sadly still more or less the same as this: http://progressquest.com/.
The much lauded "social context" ironically also provides the reinforcement mechanisms.

How long would almost all of the current MMO's last if they had to compete on the merits of the actual gameplay experience?
Ask yourself honestly.

As for that lame comment about my "credentials"... I doubt many people have more MMO experience under their belt... as there were quite few MMOs before Everquest's release and boy I did play quite heavily, not just EQ but much of what came after. Take it from someone who's been there and who's seen the same thing in many fellow players over the years... most educated people with some rudimentary psychology knowledge eventually wake up to what MMO's are and how they work.

To be fair though... MMO's are not the worst (not by a long shot) exploitive game around anymore. That honor goes to the more recent webbased "social games" like Farmville, where gameplay takes yet another nosedive in favor of achievement and peer pressure. Same basic idea though: You use reward schemes / operant conditioning  to get away with (cheaply) producing lots of repetitive low quality content to keep people playing (and paying.)
Heh, you really wanna compare gaming experience to me..?
AC, UO, AO,  WoW, NC, BP, RF, TR, FF, DaoC, STO, Eve, RO,  SWG, GW1, JG, Lineage, LOTRO, PSU, Planeshift, EQ, Rift, RS, SB, TOR (Beta only obviously), AoC, Vendetta, Aion, and countless MUDs.
If there are no numbers it's because I played the entire series of those games.
So, having played pretty much all the MMORPGs ever made worth playing at any point in their existence, I can honestly tell you that the best ones were the PvP focused, well balanced, and rounded ones, especially the ones which weren't tuned for 1on1 balance, but group vs group or clan/alliance vs clan/alliance balance.
More than 70% of my time on WoW was spent PvPing, early, in the open world, later in the massive battles that  broke out spontaneously (and on my server became self-sustaining x_X) in the open world, city raids, and then battleground organised PvP raids, Neocron was more like 90%, DaoC and Aion close to 100%, I really wish TR had been more successful with a bit more polish it had sooooooo much potential, especially seen by those high enough to start thinking about PvP.
Sadly I don't really see this being a great thing in TOR at the moment, as the gameplay isn't smooth enough and certainly not variable enough for PvP to be interesting.
Everything else was a downtime/sidequest in all of the games, the few PvE only ones on that list lasted significantly less playtime before I got bored, but some of them had their own appeal.

Competitive gaming, it's the only thing worth attention.
It's the only thing that'll genuinely test you.
Coop games are everything that's lesser and/or wrong about MMOs concentrated into the only thing you can do.



It's more that I like "gaming" in general, but find that (traditional/typical) MMO's violate the very premise of good gameplay for above mentioned reasons.

As far as TOR goes I was simply hugely disappointed that Bioware still copied the same old paradigm with all its flaws.
They bolted a story onto it, true enough, and that may to some degree be a saving grace... if you could enjoy the story on it's own merits without dealing with the rotten MMO core beneath... yet somehow I doubt you will be able to. The whole point of MMO mechanics is to stretch out the content that you do have to take as long as possible to consume.

Not that I am misunderstood: I do not dislike the idea of MMOs in general. The contrary actually... I find games with huge communities and the possibility of social interaction hugely appealing. What i loathe is what passes as gameplay in current mainstream MMOs: i.e. using applied behavorism as a substitute for quality content. Worse, as far as gameplay goes the genre has become so utterly stagnant that it almost feels like dealing with the same game in a different "skin" everytime a new MMO gets released.

To my knowledge there is only one company trying to do anything different at this stage, Arena Net with Guildwars 2, and I'll buy their game on grounds of supporting innovation - even if I end up disliking that as well.

My folly is this... for about 20 years I have looked for a "massively multiplayer online (roleplaying) game" that is "worth playing" together with my friends - on merits of gameplay - and none of us have found it.
What we did find is the same greedy exploitive gameplay mechanic in pretty much everything that calls itself "MMO" these days.... and, thankfully, a world of non - MMO multiplayer games very much worth playing together. ;)

Your folly bad taste. Although on TOR I am likely to agree with you; for entirely different reasons.
If you want storyline, go read a book, if you want gameplay, find a GOOD gameplay game, not some convoluted idea that content = gameplay.

FreeSpace has gameplay.
Mods give it content.

I'm quite happy with the 1999 release even now, so long as I have people to play with/against. - That's the mark of amazing game play, games you really honestly want to continue playing.
I'd still be playing WoW now if it weren't for the fact that I was getting tired of the fact that blizzard were limiting my gameplay with silly rules.
I'd still be playing Neocron now if it weren't for the fact that it's mostly dead because the community never really hit critical mass in the first place. :<
"Neutrality means that you don't really care, cuz the struggle goes on even when you're not there: Blind and unaware."

"We still believe in all the things that we stood by before,
and after everything we've seen here maybe even more.
I know we're not the only ones, and we were not the first,
and unapologetically we'll stand behind each word."

 

Offline TrashMan

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Coop gaming?
What the actual ****.
Coop is boring as balls, you play through once, or twice, get all the stupid little achievements and work out the crappy gimmicks (in 5 minutes) that are 'designed to keep your attention (for x hours)' and then you're done. gimme TvT objective based, team-work required combat.

MMOs are far from dead.
If a game ever manages to recreate what I had in Neocron without being MMO, I'll accept your bull, until then, just shut up. You could not be more wrong.

Multiplayer games without grinding and monthy fees, games that don't require you to play constantly just so you can keep up >>>>> MMO's

MMO's are for tools. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Nobody dies as a virgin - the life ****s us all!

You're a wrongularity from which no right can escape!

 

Offline Hades

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MMO's are for tools. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Mmmmm, delicious irony.

Either way if you guys can't cool it, keep your opinions civilized, and reframe from flaming each other like a bunch of wee kids, I think this deserves a split lock.
[22:29] <sigtau> Hello, #hard-light?  I'm trying to tell a girl she looks really good for someone who doesn't exercise.  How do I word that non-offensively?
[22:29] <RangerKarl|AtWork> "you look like a big tasty muffin"
----
<batwota> wouldn’t that mean that it’s prepared to kiss your ass if you flank it :p
<batwota> wow
<batwota> KILL

 

Offline Ravenholme

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MMO's are for tools. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Mmmmm, delicious irony.

Either way if you guys can't cool it, keep your opinions civilized, and reframe from flaming each other like a bunch of wee kids, I think this deserves a split lock.

I'm with Hades on this, who is decidely not living up to his title :p
Full Auto - I've got a bullet here with your name on it, and I'm going to keep firing until I find out which one it is.

<The_E>   Several sex-based solutions come to mind
<The_E>   Errr
<The_E>   *sexp