Author Topic: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!  (Read 28026 times)

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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
Yes, but with the self-defense argument established, then why are we even here? Why's he still posting?

He appears to have a continuing objection but I simply don't see what it is.
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
Except that you haven't established self-defence to begin with. As I keep saying this was a case of a citizen's arrest. There is a completely different set of legal precidents covering that. For instance you're assuming that the marine got stabbed before the thief got injured. If any of the injuries happened first then we're looking at a completely different case.
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
Except that you haven't established self-defence to begin with. As I keep saying this was a case of a citizen's arrest. There is a completely different set of legal precidents covering that. For instance you're assuming that the marine got stabbed before the thief got injured. If any of the injuries happened first then we're looking at a completely different case.

I must not be understanding you correctly either because I recall pointing out that the fact that the marines arrested the thief does not waive their right to defend themselves from him. It's still self-defense. How can you claim that citizen's arrest means that this isn't self-defense? Even if the thief got injured before the marine got stabbed, how would that change anything?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 11:23:17 pm by Polpolion »

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
Again you miss the point. The marines chose to put themselves in harm's way effecting a citizen's arrest. If they've gone further and injured the guy before he stabbed one of them that's even more evidence that they shouldn't have been trying to effect a citizen's arrest in the first place.

Anyway, when it comes down it, things are quite simple. I don't believe those injuries are consistent with someone acting in self defence and they definitely aren't consistent with someone making a citizen's arrest, you do. Given that the case was never real there is no way to know what would have happened.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2011, 11:53:47 pm by karajorma »
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Offline redsniper

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
Clearly, we'll have to make it a real case so we can finally settle this. Four of you go join the marines, then I'll rob a store and we'll see what happens.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
Again you miss the point. The marines chose to put themselves in harm's way effecting a citizen's arrest. If they've gone further and injured the guy before he stabbed one of them that's even more evidence that they shouldn't have been trying to effect a citizen's arrest in the first place.

So you honestly believe that four regular guys, let alone four Marines, are going to let somebody pull a knife in the middle of beating him? That's not plausible in the slightest as I already said. If he's waving the knife around threateningly, then their case gets stronger as not only were they acting in self-defense, but can also claim the defense of others.

Police are held to higher standards than citizens in this and they routinely accept a degree of injury in someone who resists.

Or are you saying he pulled the knife with two broken arms?
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
Again you miss the point. The marines chose to put themselves in harm's way effecting a citizen's arrest. If they've gone further and injured the guy before he stabbed one of them that's even more evidence that they shouldn't have been trying to effect a citizen's arrest in the first place.

Anyway, when it comes down it, things are quite simple. I don't believe those injuries are consistent with someone acting in self defence and they definitely aren't consistent with someone making a citizen's arrest, you do. Given that the case was never real there is no way to know what would have happened.

It's becoming more and more apparent that you know nothing about self defense and citizen's arrest laws in Georgia.

 

Offline S-99

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
Which we've documented heavily.
So you're all furnishing documents?
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Offline karajorma

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
So you honestly believe that four regular guys, let alone four Marines, are going to let somebody pull a knife in the middle of beating him? That's not plausible in the slightest as I already said. If he's waving the knife around threateningly, then their case gets stronger as not only were they acting in self-defense, but can also claim the defense of others.

Have you even read the original statement? Or anything I've said?

He didn't pull a knife. He left the store brandishing a knife. What about that are you not understanding?


It's becoming more and more apparent that you know nothing about self defense and citizen's arrest laws in Georgia.

You know what, I think I've realised the fundemental assumption you guys are making. It was such an obvious one that I couldn't believe you didn't see it so it's never been mentioned. Let's reverse that.

Let's say this wasn't self defence. Let's say this is a Rodney King. Let's say that the marines attempt a citizen's arrest, one of them gets stabbed and in revenge the marines give him two broken arms, a broken ankle, a broken leg, several missing teeth, possible broken ribs, multiple contusions, assorted lacerations, a broken nose and a broken jaw.

Keeping everything else the same are you SERIOUSLY claiming that a self defence plea would work here? And if you're not, ask yourself what is different apart from your assumption (not in evidence in the original story) that this wasn't revenge?

« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 05:25:13 am by karajorma »
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Offline LordMelvin

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
Okay, did people not see the link to the news article jr2 posted a few pages ago, where it's pretty clear that the a$#*|3 in question wasn't particularly roughed up, they basically just knocked him down and sat on him 'till the fuzz showed up? And also, the guy who got stabbed didn't even notice until they'd already subdued him? And in true marine tradition was more upset over his uniform shirt being damaged than over actually being stabbed...
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Offline Polpolion

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
If the marines can convince the jury the thief was a threat, it doesn't matter.

 
Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
Okay, did people not see the link to the news article jr2 posted a few pages ago, where it's pretty clear that the a$#*|3 in question wasn't particularly roughed up, they basically just knocked him down and sat on him 'till the fuzz showed up?

We saw it, we're just more interested in the fictional version where the robber was brutalized a bit.

So the question is, how did the Marines attempt to apprehend the guy? Did they stand in his way and say "stop" or did they try to physically detain him?
If the former, and the bad guy tried to stab them to remove the obstacle, then they would be justified - with their Marine training - in disabling him, brutally. If the latter, then the Marines could be viewed as the aggressors, even when one was stabbed, and there are plenty of lawyers who would take up the case on behalf of the robber.
____

And on the question of the pirates attacking the frigate, I've been thinking about it some. The attack happened at midnight, so it was dark and they probably didn't know exactly what it was at first (link).
The pirates were planning on hitting a freighter, so what kind of weapons would they bring for that? Probably not the prohibitively expensive HEAT rounds (unless they were trying to sink it, which would be the opposite of what they wanted), likely just frag RPGs, for the purpose of intimidating freighter crew and blowing up any who resisted.

That would also explain why they fired 4 rockets from far enough away to be engaged successfully by the CIWS. And if the pirates began to flee after the first RPG was shot down, that could explain the other 3 being fired in an attempt to discourage pursuit.

So in my opinion, that is logically why the RPG only "dented" the ship.

EDIT: Sorry, that looked shorter in my head

 

Offline karajorma

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
If the marines can convince the jury the thief was a threat, it doesn't matter.

Hang on a sec. Are you seriously saying that if the marines did beat the crap out of the guy in revenge it should be okay if they can claim he was a threat? Even if he wasn't?
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Offline Scotty

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
If the marines can convince the jury the thief was a threat, it doesn't matter.

Hang on a sec. Are you seriously saying that if the marines did beat the crap out of the guy in revenge it should be okay if they can claim he was a threat? Even if he wasn't?

You keep getting hung up on this "in revenge" business.  If the guy is seriously injured, it's significantly more likely than not that the injuries sustained were sustained while he was being disarmed.  It would take maybe five seconds to inflict half a dozen broken bones and other injuries described in the fictional account.

 
Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
You keep getting hung up on this "in revenge" business.  If the guy is seriously injured, it's significantly more likely than not that the injuries sustained were sustained while he was being disarmed.  It would take maybe five seconds to inflict half a dozen broken bones and other injuries described in the fictional account.

I guess the interpretation of the fictional version is exactly that the guy was beaten in revenge for the stabbing, and not implying that he suffered injuries while being disarmed. But that's an interpretation of an interpretation of subtle innuendo in a fictional police report. So we make up our own scenarios to debate.

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
can we rename this to "Truly rediculous THREAD, ...." now?
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Offline FireSpawn

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
People just need to relax.....



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If you hit it and it bleeds, you can kill it. If you hit it and it doesn't bleed...You are obviously not hitting hard enough.

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Offline karajorma

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
Post one more of those, and you won't be posting here for a while. One thing this thread definitely doesn't need is your back-seat moderation.

You keep getting hung up on this "in revenge" business.  If the guy is seriously injured, it's significantly more likely than not that the injuries sustained were sustained while he was being disarmed.  It would take maybe five seconds to inflict half a dozen broken bones and other injuries described in the fictional account.

You keep getting hung up on the fact that in the real story this wasn't about revenge and refuse to consider that the fake one might have been about it.

I happen to disagree with you on the 5 second thing. Yes you can do that damage if you go in intending to do that damage. But as I keep stating you aren't allowed to go in intending to do that damage when making a citizen's arrest.
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Offline WeatherOp

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
Times really are slow.... :p
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Offline jr2

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Re: Truly ridiculous crimes, let's mug Chuck Norris!
Practically slo-mo, so you can see it (they are demonstrating the moves on screen, not seriously executing them: ) 1 min, 46 seconds:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0SB5xlxJIU

and http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=QyjpawufDKA

Some sort of clue as to the physical conditioning Marines go through:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CuKfHiX4ks&feature=related

Now, I want you to keep in mind that at the lower levels, you really don't have all these fancy options for disabling / disarming at your disposal.  You have been trained to take the enemy down, to maintain your control over the fight when the enemy is down, and to kill him.

Put it this way: if I considered the enemy a threat that must be stopped, my best bet would be to do a move (side-step, let's say to the left of the enemy as he is facing me) out of the way of the knife, throw up a block (forearm) to prevent him from attacking with the knife, somehow transition that into an armbar (grab the arm closest to me with my right hand while using my left arm to lever the arm I just grabbed and throw him to the ground.)

Now, here's the fun part.  I've got him on the ground.  Hopefully I maintain control of his arm and have him in a pin where he can't move cause of the pain.  Cause if he manages to get out of the move and ends up on the ground, I'm thinking the only thing I'm going to want to do to him while he's got that knife is gonna be axe-stomp.  Which means, crushed skull.  It's a lethal move.  Not pretty. Let's hope I hold on to his arm.

That's the kind of thing a Marine would be thinking.  There are plenty of other moves, it just depends on the circumstance and what you think increases your chances.  I think before the thief realized he was hurt bad enough to surrender, the damage mentioned in the proposed scenario could be done.

EDIT: Here's hammering the basic, basic fundamentals.  Looks like the move they are practicing first is the one where you go for the enemy's eyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuG_AXD6frw&feature=related

EDIT2: Yada yada, more vid if you want:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_oafAgt7Ck&feature=endscreen&NR=1

Hmm, some techniques involved in takedowns: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=heXRZXRSgwU&feature=related
« Last Edit: December 14, 2011, 09:47:11 pm by jr2 »