[karajorma]

Opinions are exactly what is being posted. Seeing a threat of power like this is just outrageous.

He can post his opinion. I never said he couldn't. He just can't belittle anyone who happens to hold a different one. I've seen him do that numerous times and quite frankly, I've had enough of it. It stiffles discussion since people either end up in a stupid argument with him or leave the thread and don't come back. All I'm asking for is civilised discussion. Is that really something you're against?

Recording of sounds and flight data is standard on all commercial airliners today, and ships as well. Assuming they don't exist in FS is literally crazy. There is zero reason to backtrack from this technology. The benefit from this sort of data is beyond useful in any number of situations.

Zero reason or not, if the NTF play Snipes cockpit recordings then they would instantly know he's a spy. So let me hear your explaination for how Snipes is able to communicate with you if every word he says is being recorded.

This forum gets more stuck up and ignorant every day. I don't post often, but points like these just make me think "Are you clueless?"

See it's this kind of nonsense that I had a go at NGTM-1R about. I've not insulted you. Why do you feel the need to insult me? Even though you've failed to understand a point I would have thought I'd made crystal clear earlier. Even though you've not actually added anything to the discussion other that proving you haven't actually understood my post. Instead of insults, I've simply restated it in a different way. Courtesy costs nothing.

If they were recording flight sounds and stuff, couldn't Snipes just loop some background sound into the recorder while he communicates? Like how they spoof surveillance cameras in the movies? I'm sure he has the capability, being a high-level intelligence operative.

Sure but then we're back to exactly the point I made in the first post I made on the subject. If he can do that for short range comms, why can't he for long range?



Here's another point to think about. What happened in FS2 is canon. Snipes obviously has access to this information somehow. This is indisputably canon. If not by direct communications with Command, how do you explain it?

[Mongoose]

I'm starting to feel like the annual HLP Head-Butting Rite of Spring has arrived a few weeks early.  Must be the goofy warm weather.

[yuezhi]

I'm starting to feel like the annual HLP Head-Butting Rite of Spring has arrived a few weeks early.  Must be the goofy warm weather.

Rite? i haven't been here long enough

[karajorma]

I'm starting to feel like the annual HLP Head-Butting Rite of Spring has arrived a few weeks early.  Must be the goofy warm weather.

That's why I'm telling people who can't maintain a civilised tone that they'll be taking their rutting on a trip to monkeyville. There's really no reason why a discussion on Admiral Ahmose should descend into an argument. It's not even like he's a real political figure.

[jr2]

Since when have people needed a real reason to get heated about arguments over trivial matters? 

However, it does seem that there can't really be any amount of discussion about anything on HLP without at least a little bit of belittling.  I find it irritating and stupid, however it appears I'm not immune, judging on my reading of my own posts...  I guess it's that we are all to keen to either take offense where none is meant and/or to give offense where none is warranted.

[Dilmah G]

Agreed with the above sentiment - it's more or less why I refrain from posting a lot nowadays. I digress, personally I think it's more likely that as a deep cover operative, Snipes/Alfawun would be operating off of rehandled information for a lot of the time, simply because it's the safer way of going about it (as someone pointed out earlier).

Despite that, I doubt Ahmose would've known a great deal about ETAK and any of the other crap that's keeping Bosch alive in the eyes of the rest of the GTVA. Given this, I'm sure a great many other Officers would've made the call to go in guns blazing if they thought they had a credible chance of taking down the Iceni and in their eyes, come pretty close to winning the war even despite what Command had said.

[Goober5000]

However, it does seem that there can't really be any amount of discussion about anything on HLP without at least a little bit of belittling.  I find it irritating and stupid, however it appears I'm not immune, judging on my reading of my own posts...  I guess it's that we are all to keen to either take offense where none is meant and/or to give offense where none is warranted.

Belittling is pretty hard to avoid considering that it's human nature.  HLP is actually one of the better forums to manage its occurrence.  And you are certainly correct that the community is better served by giving everyone the benefit of the doubt.

That said, karajorma, I honestly don't see any belittling in what NGTM1R is saying.  I see a well-reasoned argument between two people with very strong opinions on a subject.  What I do see is an admin threatening to monkey his opponent under the guise of enforcing civility, simply because he can't manage to win an argument.   And I disapprove of that even more than I disapprove of belittling.

[General Battuta]

HLP is actually one of the better forums to manage its occurrence

it really isn't

[jr2]

Say, which other forums are better?  The only ones I've dared to venture into are certainly worse.... either that or about as dead as one of our abandoned project sub-forums.    (That was a serious question, BTW, as I've not really run across many forums as civilized as HLP and I would mind finding more).

[karajorma]

That said, karajorma, I honestly don't see any belittling in what NGTM1R is saying.  I see a well-reasoned argument between two people with very strong opinions on a subject.  What I do see is an admin threatening to monkey his opponent under the guise of enforcing civility, simply because he can't manage to win an argument.   And I disapprove of that even more than I disapprove of belittling.

You don't see a constant attempt to claim my entire argument was invented for the express purpose of arguing with him? That's not a civil argument. Especially as in both that post and the next one I pointed out exactly why he was wrong on whether the GTVA records cockpit sounds or not. I'm quite capable of winning this argument. I just don't want to have to put up with a ridiculously belligerent attitude in order to do it.

The simple fact is that several people have told me that they don't bother replying to NGTM-1R or any thread he's involved in because of his attitude. It's not worth arguing with someone who will refuse to consider that anyone else might also be right. I've personally had enough of that. 1 member does not get to dictate who posts simply by being a big enough dick that no one else wants to argue with him.

Lastly, I'd have threatened to monkey NGTM-1R over this discussion even if I hadn't been involved. So it's definitely not personal. Hell, he only got a walk on the Whitney Houston thread precisely because I was involved. I was told by several people he deserved a banning on that one but since the thread was closed I didn't do anything about it.

[NGTM-1R]

You don't see a constant attempt to claim my entire argument was invented for the express purpose of arguing with him? That's not a civil argument.

You were, by your own admission, replying to someone else. You refused to explain your reasoning and simply poked holes.

You slung mud; a viable alternative theory in this context was not presented. Yes, I'm hostile to that; a statement is not an argument, arguments require supporting detail and evidence. I offered supporting evidence for my opinion (citing FS2 missions with supporting evidence i.e. the use of secure comms even outside the presence of witnesses and the behavior of reality in both spy operations and flight/ship data records) and asked why you didn't offer any for yours.

You then threatened to monkey me.

If you want to actually discussion an issue, then discuss it. Explain your reasoning and offer evidence to support it, do not simply deny that your opponent is competent.

On a personal note, if you dislike the feeling of being browbeaten, then I would remind you that you're not unfond of engaging in it yourself; you've claimed I've offered unsupported assertion throughout this discussion when I've consistently offered supporting detail and evidence when challenged. Heal thyself, administrator.

1 member does not get to dictate who posts simply by being a big enough dick that no one else wants to argue with him.

You've been allowing Trashman to do this for years. (Dear god, maybe a decade.) I'm pretty sure I'm an order of magnitude more reasonable and less offensive than Trash.

And you are essentially whipping out a big enough dick and claiming you're not dictating who posts.


If you want my honest opinion of what happened in a story context, Snipes guessed his original orders were still operative, and because you successfully defended the Iceni, it was fiat accompli and there was nothing to be done about it either way. If Snipes and you had joined the attack on the Iceni and succeeded, I expect you would have been held blameless, and Admiral Ahmose might have come in for minor censure, but it would still be fiat accompli and you and Snipes would have gone on to successful and highly-placed careers as the people who killed Aken Bosch and ended the NTF.

If you want to know what I think really happened, though, I think Snipes knew because The Plot Demanded It. did not stop to consider that he really should not have current and up-to-date information in the situation they'd set up. All they knew was that they wanted to throw out more about ETAK and that ETAK was supposed to play a big role in the story still to come (maybe up to FS3?), so was Bosch, so the player wasn't allowed to break all their storytelling work here. The situation does not completely make sense because the story is responding to overt manipulation by the writer.

[Klaustrophobia]

That said, karajorma, I honestly don't see any belittling in what NGTM1R is saying.  I see a well-reasoned argument between two people with very strong opinions on a subject.  What I do see is an admin threatening to monkey his opponent under the guise of enforcing civility, simply because he can't manage to win an argument.   And I disapprove of that even more than I disapprove of belittling.

You don't see a constant attempt to claim my entire argument was invented for the express purpose of arguing with him? That's not a civil argument. Especially as in both that post and the next one I pointed out exactly why he was wrong on whether the GTVA records cockpit sounds or not. I'm quite capable of winning this argument. I just don't want to have to put up with a ridiculously belligerent attitude in order to do it.

The simple fact is that several people have told me that they don't bother replying to NGTM-1R or any thread he's involved in because of his attitude. It's not worth arguing with someone who will refuse to consider that anyone else might also be right. I've personally had enough of that. 1 member does not get to dictate who posts simply by being a big enough dick that no one else wants to argue with him.

Lastly, I'd have threatened to monkey NGTM-1R over this discussion even if I hadn't been involved. So it's definitely not personal. Hell, he only got a walk on the Whitney Houston thread precisely because I was involved. I was told by several people he deserved a banning on that one but since the thread was closed I didn't do anything about it.

.... back at you.


i avoid threads with YOU involved in them for pretty much the exact reasons you just threw out for NGTM-1R.  you're not the only one i do this for, but you are the only one with admin powers that threatens to use them.  and it happens alarmingly frequently.  to the point i've considered more than once PMing the other admins about taking yours away.  i never did because i don't know how the admin heirarchy works here.  if you think he's not listening to you, then just leave the thread.  why bother?  threatening to ban someone who got in an argument with you is despicable and needs to stop NOW.  is it REALLY that important that you prove yourself correct?


and for the record, there is no canon evidence proving EITHER of you correct.  there's just bits you can try to draw inferences from.  either way.  inferences != proof.

[Zacam]

Oh hai.

*click*

We really don't need this. Disagreements and the like are one thing. Expositions for or against power and or how it is used on the other hand, that (in my opinion) is going a bit too far.

And, while I severely dislike stopping spirited conversations, I do encourage anybody that looks to have the ORIGINAL topic in a general discussion to feel free to create another thread on it with my apologies.

And while it is not HLP policy to advocate deletion of topics, I will take the risk of saying that I don't want to see any other follow up on this specific topics devolution. You can PM me if you like, but no 'last minute' words. It's now locked, let's leave it that way.

If disagreements can't be made civilly, then perhaps they should not be made at all. And that is something that should be possible regardless of "status".

And yes, this also means that I will draw the ire of telling any other admins involved here that no, they don't get to leverage or exercise their powers. Because frankly, if anybody is going to do a ban or a monkey in regards to a conversation that an Admin is involved in, the ONLY way that should EVER be done is NEVER by the Admin actually involved IN the conversation. Because then it is personal, and NOT a matter of policy.

And last I checked, it wasn't our policy to do things out of personal reasons.

[karajorma]

I know you said no last words but I feel I should point out that I never said *I* would monkey him. I always refer another admin to a thread in which I'm involved for a second opinion even if I personally monkey the user. Feel free to check with Goober as it's usually him.

[Zacam]

...

* Zacam sighs