Author Topic: Windows 8  (Read 23715 times)

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Offline sigtau

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I can't believe there hasn't already been a thread for this.  Come on, HLP.  :ick:

WARNING: WALL OF TEXT BELOW.  TL;DR at the bottom.

(Disclaimer: This post is more editorial rather than encyclopedic in nature with cited facts used as much as possible to keep it from looking like useless rambling.)

Now, unless you've been living in a cave, under a rock, or in a submarine with no Internet access whatsoever, you're probably already aware of the next generation of Microsoft's flagship product, Windows 8.  The new OS features oodles of handy new features, such as integrated USB3 support, the ability to save the vital portions of your Windows desktop to a bootable flash drive, and a touchscreen-tablet-centric interface, among other things--also sporting a substantially lowered price tag.  All of this kept in mind, Windows 8 looked like a package filled with awesome--for a Windows release, at least--for the first few stages of development.  Then, in recent months, it's all beginning to look rather bleak for consumers and serious PC users (such as gamers) who, after this next release, may feel like they've been alienated or abandoned by Microsoft.

To start with, Windows 8 has dropped (and in some less extreme cases, deprecated) support for the Win32 API--essentially, the API (application programming interface) that has been used by developers on the Windows platform for nearly 17 years, is officially gone, and--unless another subsequent release of Windows resurrects this API--when Windows 7 ends its support life, Win32 will no longer be supported or added onto by Microsoft.  In short, everything that many serious software developers spent years (nearly two decades) learning is about to disappear and no longer be relevant.  Thanks, Microsoft.

(Note: It appears that this isn't going to be breaking compatibility with already-made Win32 applications--at least for the initial release--but it does indicate that Microsoft will be ditching Win32 compatibility very soon if they're no longer allowing developers to use it on their new platform.  Put simply: Microsoft is pushing for us to start using the replacement, WinRT, instead of Win32, by pulling the rug out from underneath veteran developers.  Not all hope is lost, but building graphical applications for Windows 8 is now going to be a hell of a lot harder.)

Additionally, Microsoft has now implemented a new UI, the most obvious change to Windows 8.  Arguably not as bad as the previous point (until you hear that it's now impossible to use anything but the new interface and restore the old Windows desktop), the Windows 8 interface--now called "Modern UI" as opposed to the original "Metro"--introduces what was originally the Windows 7 Phone/Zune interface to the desktop.  Instead of neat icons and a taskbar featuring the legendary Start menu, the Windows 8 interface introduces you to your workspace in the form of tiles that become full-screen when clicked.  With the Start menu, taskbar, and traditional desktop gone, the well-known Start menu has been replaced with the new fullscreen Start screen.  The interface is highly elegant and very much geared towards tablets and touchscreens, but as a result, appears to be more or less moving away from the traditional mouse and keyboard interface--possibly serving as a source of alienation for many veteran PC users.  Additionally , multi-tasking is slightly hindered by the fact that you can only run two apps side by side--but then again, quite a few people use every program maximized--myself included--so this isn't that much of an issue.

As a result of the new interface, Microsoft will now only be deploying apps through the new Windows StoreThis does not mean it's impossible to install apps outside of the store--it's similar to Apple's App Store.  Come to think of it, it's exactly like the App Store, because it's still possible to install non-appstore programs onto OS X--obviously, with FSO being an example.

Windows 8 has also served as a new springboard for the deployment of Microsoft's new tablet competitor: Microsoft Surface.  Imagine a netbook and an iPad combined together, using Windows 8, and bearing the first-party Microsoft logo (i.e. they're somewhat stabbing their OEM partners in the back, yet the OEMs don't seem to care).  That's pretty much it.  :nervous:

Given the fact that it's now impossible to disable the Metro/Modern/whateverthehelltheycallit UI, this may prove as a source of confusion for many novice-ish users who have been using computers in the workplace for years (i.e. our parents or older siblings) with the sudden change.  Combined with much fear, uncertainty, and doubt from the consumer market, as well as popular game developers such as Valve (calling it a "catastrophe") and Blizzard (calling it "not awesome") disagreeing with what Windows 8 is to bring to the table, this may be the beginning of the end as we know it for what you've come to expect, know, and love in Microsoft's flagship OS--which, especially in Windows 7, has turned into quite a bit.

I personally expect to turn this into another Windows Vista for the desktop platform.  PC desktops aren't going away any time soon--perhaps they'll be less common--but Microsoft appears to be taking a ham-fisted approach with Windows 8 at making the desktop appear to be deprecated.

What do you guys think about Windows 8 and its apparent bull****?  (I know I'm being incredibly biased here, but I'm not very happy with Microsoft at the moment.  Bear with me.)

On a completely related note: this may be a boon for Linux users, especially with Valve's apparent port of Steam and the Source engine (and all of its various forks and versions) to Linux--notably, the Linux port of Left 4 Dead 2's fork of the Source engine (the most recent fork of Source, powering Left 4 Dead 2, Portal 2, and Counter-Strike: Global Offensive) outperforms the Windows version of itself.  With AAA quality games coming to platforms like Linux, could this be the chance for Linux to finally put its foot in the door as a consumer OS?  Perhaps there won't be a mass-exodus to Linux or other operating systems, but this may be the chance for Linux to raise its 1% to 4.8% market share in the desktop environment.

Okay, done ranting.  Discuss.

TL;DR version: Windows 8 slaps developers in the face by deprecating Win32 and making it incredibly hard to port non-Windows 8 programs to it; the new interface is shiny and nice but there's no way to go back to the old traditional desktop; the app store is a literal carbon copy of Apple's app store approach; Microsoft's using Windows 8 as an excuse to make a first party tablet computer to compete with the iPad/Samsung tablets; Steam's getting a Linux port because Valve can't stand Windows 8's crappiness, and Source games ironically run better on Linux than they do on Windows.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 11:07:08 pm by sigtau »
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Offline achtung

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Microsoft is competing with its OEMs.
Microsoft is emulating Apple.
Steve Ballmer is still in charge.
Metro is forced.

I would -SERIOUSLY- consider placing a bet on Microsoft losing market share if they keep this up through Windows 9. I might even consider betting on them becoming an IP shell company.

If Microsoft were to flop, we would be stuck with Apple, and various other manufacturers trying to pull custom ecosystems out of their asses. It could truly signify the death of the PC. On the other hand, Microsoft is showing a desire to emulate Apple, so it may not matter. I'm not sure how to feel.
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Offline Droid803

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Offline karajorma

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All the OEMs will stick it on their brand new machines (cause Windows 8 sounds newer than Windows 7) so eventually it will become big enough that people will have no choice but to support it. MS is simply so big that they can serve the consumers a **** sandwich and expect people to still eat it.

We've seen this happen before with Windows ME and Vista.
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Offline sigtau

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On the bright side, Windows 9 is looking pretty awesome right about now with all of that said.  :rolleyes:
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Offline achtung

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All the OEMs will stick it on their brand new machines (cause Windows 8 sounds newer than Windows 7) so eventually it will become big enough that people will have no choice but to support it. MS is simply so big that they can serve the consumers a **** sandwich and expect people to still eat it.

We've seen this happen before with Windows ME and Vista.

The environment is a little different now. Apple is a well-known and respected (by average joe) alternative. Linux has matured to the point where it is actually sustainable for an OEM to ship only Ubuntu. Various software devs are jumping ship and supporting Mac and Linux. Microsoft has shown a clear willingness to screw with its OEMs.

Interesting times may be ahead.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 11:20:25 pm by Swantz »
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Offline An4ximandros

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This is good, Microsoft is just begging for a bullet to the head AND giving Linux a chance to fire it.

The change is gonna suck, but the aftermath will be well worth it if Linux plans "it's" moves accordingly.




 

Offline Polpolion

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Considering that the likely consumer alternative to Microsoft-and-OEM is Apple and probably not Linux-and-OEM I'd rather have Microsoft stop scaring us like this and have linux definitely continue to live in the shadows. :shaking:

 

Offline karajorma

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The environment is a little different now. Apple is a well-known and respected (by average joe) alternative. Linux has matured to the point where it is actually sustainable for an OEM to ship only Ubuntu. Various software devs are jumping ship and supporting Mac and Linux. Microsoft has shown a clear willingness to screw with its OEMs.

Interesting times may be ahead.

The problem, as always, is software. Not many people are going to be willing to give up all their old software. That's pretty much how Windows became so big. So it's all a matter of how much software Windows 8 breaks.

To be honest, this is basically a gift for ReactOS if they can get things working quickly enough. But I really don't see a huge switch to Apple happening unless MS are being massively more idiotic than even the stuff I've read about Windows 8 suggests.
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Offline Admiral LSD

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Interesting and very important question: How many people who are railing against Windows 8 have actually used any of the FREE previews that MS have released so far?

edit: equally important clarification: by "used", I mean for a significant length of time and in some sort of reasonable capacity.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 12:34:58 am by Admiral LSD »
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Offline mjn.mixael

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Your question is invalid. It's just too damned hard to use Windows 8 for a significant length of time... :lol:
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Offline achtung

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Interesting and very important question: How many people who are railing against Windows 8 have actually used any of the FREE previews that MS have released so far?

edit: equally important clarification: by "used", I mean for a significant length of time and in some sort of reasonable capacity.

Used the consumer preview exclusively for a couple of days (actually bothered to install to HD). Still hate it.
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Offline Mongoose

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Heh...here I am all the way back on XP, I still haven't managed to upgrade the family machine from Vista to 7, and now apparently 8 is an utter cluster****.  Fun fun. :D

 

Offline Admiral LSD

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Your question is invalid. It's just too damned hard to use Windows 8 for a significant length of time... :lol:

The question is more valid than the opinions of people railing against something that have absolutely no ****ing clue about

Used the consumer preview exclusively for a couple of days (actually bothered to install to HD). Still hate it.

Only for a couple of days in a setup designed to give you an easy out if need be? Of course you're going to fall into the party line.
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Offline achtung

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Used the consumer preview exclusively for a couple of days (actually bothered to install to HD). Still hate it.

Only for a couple of days in a setup designed to give you an easy out if need be? Of course you're going to fall into the party line.

If it can't impress me in two days, how the **** is it going to impress average joe in a Best Buy in ten minutes? I gave Windows 8 far more chance than its target audience is going to give it. I actually went in with an open mind. I enjoy trying new and different UIs. I was open to, and still am open to, GNOME 3 and Unity. Hell, I actually enjoy them. Those two have been berated furiously within the Linux world.
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Offline Mikes

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Well the desktop and desktop programs are still there.... just hidden and tucked away behind a Metro..... oh wait, Modern (lol) button.

Windows 8 PCs.... trying to turn every PC into an iPad - while hiding everything that made Windows good out of sight.


Frankly... they shoulda gone ahead and released this whole mess as "Windows Touch" and everything woulda been alright. ;)


The one thing that has people pissed is that it is pitched as Windows 7 successor when it is questionable whether it can fill that role.

Heck.. as someone who uses WACOM tablets everyday even I am propably going to stay with Windows 7, as Windows 8 doesn t even get pen computing right at this point (pissing off the fiercely loyal pen computing community that is heavily present in the medical field and education and relies on these devices for their work for over a decade)... 

Windows 8 isn't even a "Tablet OS" ... for that it would need proper support for pen only devices (using a pen in Metro is about as clumsy as using a mouse and at this point (in the preview) some OS dialogue options are outright broken for pen input resulting in an inexcusable showstopper until you connect a mouse)... nope, it is sadly an "in your face/no excuses - Touch OS" with a tucked away legacy desktop.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 02:41:21 am by Mikes »

 

Offline Fury

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Interesting and very important question: How many people who are railing against Windows 8 have actually used any of the FREE previews that MS have released so far?

edit: equally important clarification: by "used", I mean for a significant length of time and in some sort of reasonable capacity.
I did use the previews but I quickly returned back to Win7 as I didn't like Win8.

Win8 is a mess. I suppose it works fine for phones and tablets, but in PC it's definitely an incoherent mess. I do not know how things are in the final version, but the last public preview still didn't even have all bundled applications using Metro (yes, I said Metro, screw you), but instead reverted to the legacy desktop that is now void of everything, even start menu.

Luckily I don't see companies adopting Win8 because they would have to train their employees to use it. The UI is too different now. Even though in theory all Win7 compatible apps should work in Win8, I doubt this is the case with the coded by monkeys software that companies use.

I'll definitely be sticking with Win7 unless in the future Win8 has something I really want that Win7 doesn't. At the moment that is not the case.

 

Offline The E

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Quote
(Note: It appears that this isn't going to be breaking compatibility with already-made Win32 applications--at least for the initial release--but it does indicate that Microsoft will be ditching Win32 compatibility very soon if they're no longer allowing developers to use it on their new platform.  Put simply: Microsoft is pushing for us to start using the replacement, WinRT, instead of Win32, by pulling the rug out from underneath veteran developers.  Not all hope is lost, but building graphical applications for Windows 8 is now going to be a hell of a lot harder.)

Please do not start spreading FUD. Win32 is not going to go away any time soon. MS will have to continue to support it for decades to come; they're not going to declare it totally obsolete anytime soon.

That being said, it's a move I completely agree with. Win32 was getting a bit long in the tooth, with compatibility stuff like WinSxS and WoW64 bolted onto it to keep it usable on current machines.

Your "slap in the face" is only one if you have only recently started to develop things. The writing has been on the wall ever since the first Longhorn designs. If you were unable to see it, too bad for you.
Secondly, MS' goal is to unify the development process, so that there is no fundamental difference between writing for the new Windows Mobile, and writing for the Windows Desktop. Apple will do pretty much the same in coming years.
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also sporting a substantially lowered price tag.

Now those prices are mighty tempting.  One could buy a cheap upgrade and just shelve it until Win8 gets enough first and third party tweaks to become useful.  :D
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Offline Admiral LSD

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Funny, the UI doesn't appear "radically" different from where I'm sitting:



vs.



edit: Those lower prices are open to everyone with a qualifying product, not just new PC buyers? I was thinking about maybe waiting for the first service pack before pulling the trigger, but if that's the case then I might just push up the timetable...
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 03:54:08 am by Admiral LSD »
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