Author Topic: Windows 8  (Read 23757 times)

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Offline jr2

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The public adores the iPhone.  I predict the majority will love it.  What of it?  :lol:

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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the public will "love it" simply because it's heavily promoted and comes with their new computer.
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Offline jr2

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Yupp.  Same as iPhone.

 

Offline The E

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You got a new iPhone with your Computer?
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Offline Al-Rik

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What do you guys think about Windows 8 and its apparent bull****?

I believe Windows 8 will improve the use of Tablet PCs in production and logistics. So it might be boost Microsoft sales in the professional market.
Nowadays PCs are mostly used in an office environment, and Tablet PCs (like the I Pad) are only used for personal entertainment.

A Windows Tablet PC what is easy to integrate in a company's networks and runs applications like Word, Excel & Access may be helpful for workers in storehouses, laboratory and  production plants.
I-Pads and Android Tablets are IMHO at the moment not alternative.

And as for us PC Gamers,... well I don't think we are really important for Microsoft.

 

Offline Mikes

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What do you guys think about Windows 8 and its apparent bull****?

I believe Windows 8 will improve the use of Tablet PCs in production and logistics. So it might be boost Microsoft sales in the professional market.
Nowadays PCs are mostly used in an office environment, and Tablet PCs (like the I Pad) are only used for personal entertainment.

A Windows Tablet PC what is easy to integrate in a company's networks and runs applications like Word, Excel & Access may be helpful for workers in storehouses, laboratory and  production plants.
I-Pads and Android Tablets are IMHO at the moment not alternative.

And as for us PC Gamers,... well I don't think we are really important for Microsoft.

One caveeat... for professional applications... we have had awesome Tablet Computers with both touch and also the rather incredible WACOM Pen technology for years now already.
(And several companies that require either devices that offer precise drawing/handwriting capabilities or the ability to effectively use them while standing/walking have been using them extensively.)

I've been using first a Thinkpad X220 convertible, and now a Motion J3500 Slate over a span of about 4 years already and lemme tell you, for education, architecture, medical applications and artists those Tablet PCs are still without peer. A Wacom "Penabled" Tablet with a professional drawing program (for artists) or OneNote (for teaching, note taking or marking up documents) has no viable competitor - none.

With Windows 8 we may now finally see devices that are as capable as those larger Tablet Computers (which are usually 12" devices), but in a much smaller form factor and with much less weight and... for much less money (Professional 12" Tablets have traditionally been very very expensive.).
That's nice... but for someone who has been using Tablet Computers professionally for about 4 years now.... not really anything new. ;)


So... my suspicion is, commercial success... is not really that much about capabilities.... but rather much more about marketing and the devices "sexyness".

The Surface (Pro) is sexy.... and it is lightyears ahead of an IPad in usefulness...  but it can't do anything that professional Tablet PCs haven't been offering for years.
(It may even be worse if the Microsoft Pen is not up to Wacom Standards...  which it likely isn't.)


Now why is this a (potential) caveeat? Well... it will be one if it turns out that the market at large doesn't give a sh** about the advantages of fully featured "computers" in Tablet format and continues to simply choose the device that is perceived as the "sexiest" (i.e. Apple) as long as it can do some web browsing, Facebook and some casual/mobile games.

So now that everyone is crazy about Tablets (thanks to Apple)...  Microsofts success really hinges on the question wether the majority of users can appreciate the capabilities of a fully featured computer...  interesting times heh. ;)

Or in other words: Just how low is the lowest common denominator... we're about to find out!
« Last Edit: October 28, 2012, 12:37:21 pm by Mikes »

 

Offline jr2

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You got a new iPhone with your Computer?

It's wildly promoted as must-have, 'hip', yada yada.  Having tried it: yes, it's slick.  However, too OCD-controlling, preventing customization for fear of ruining my "experience"... lol wut?  That's what restore is for if I break something.

 

Offline Klaustrophobia

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the point being there's a pretty significant difference between the iphone being a pop culture fad and windows being all but forced upon PC buyers.
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Offline Bobboau

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iOS is rather forced upon iPhone/iPad users.
especially seeing how it is now actually illegal to jailbreak iPads.
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Offline jr2

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Yeah.  There is a project to get Android running on the iPhone, but IIRC it only (sort of) works on the 3G (not 3GS and up) iPhones.  And Apple actively opposes jailbreaking via the iOS and hardware design of iDevices.  Each new update to the software removes the previously found exploit allowing jailbreaking.  M$ seems to be trying to follow suit with UEFI on non-x86/x64 platforms.

EDIT: I should add, at least with the x86/x64 platform, you can always just decline the MS EULA.  I think they will refund you your money IIRC.  Then you can install Linux.  Or MacOS if you have the drivers and software to pull it off.

EDIT2: On second thought, that doesn't make sense (MS refunding your money).  I may be mistaking my memory of reading about that.  I'll have to look it up.  :rolleyes:
« Last Edit: November 01, 2012, 10:34:23 am by jr2 »

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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especially seeing how it is now actually illegal to jailbreak iPads.

Say what now?
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Offline Luis Dias

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He's bluffing. Court's actually decided the opposite, that it is quite legal to jailbreak your iOS devices.

 

Offline MP-Ryan

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He's bluffing. Court's actually decided the opposite, that it is quite legal to jailbreak your iOS devices.

I imagine that depends where you live, which is why I was asking.
"In the beginning, the Universe was created.  This made a lot of people very angry and has widely been regarded as a bad move."  [Douglas Adams]

 
Today I had the opportunity to try out the official release version of W8 - on a touchscreen. Test subject was a Sony VAIO all-in-one. As W8 is hardly designed for mouse and keyboard, I felt I should give the touch interface a chance.

DISCLAIMER

What follows is the highly subjective opinion of a first-time, mildly prejudiced W8-touchscreen user. I'm focusing mainly on the 'Modern' interface (for that's what it's called now, from what I've heard), because apparently that's the future Microsoft has prepared for us; if they get away with it in W8, I expect much more of it in W9.

The good

Yeah, okay, the Start screen makes sense for a touch interface - probably more so than the old menu. And some bits of Modern are looking quite the part - for some reason I liked the computer settings app, once I'd figured out how it works. Furthermore it's generally responsive, like any halfway decent OS should on a system like that.

The bad

Aside from the start screen, I was rather disappointed by W8's touch controls. You know how with a mouse, the start button pops up if you move to the bottom-left corner? No such thing on touch. I tried tapping, dragging, swiping, to no avail. So much for an easy way back to the Start screen. The next most convenient option to go back would be via the ridiculously-named 'Charms bar', which you're supposed to swipe in from the right. There's a knack to that, too: you really have to swipe in from outside the screen border to bring it up, just dragging near the right edge isn't good enough. But alright, once I got that figured it went pretty smoothly.

Next up, multitasking. It's practically impossible. You've probably heard that all 'apps' (as in, stuff you get from the Windows Store) run in fullscreen, but that they can also be used side-by-side. Well, that's only true on a widescreen; if you want to multi-app on a 1280x1024, you're out of luck. And then still! Using apps side-by-side only works with one big and one small app. The width distribution is fixed around 80/20 (or 20/80). Even on a big screen like the VAIO's, this means the smaller app is barely wide enough for following a chat. There is no way to choose the width of the apps yourself, you can't even just make them equally wide (like you can on the desktop).

And app switching? If you drag in from the left, you'll get the previous app you were in. But what if you have more than two apps open? I found this out purely by chance: drag in from the left, as if to get the previous app, then drag it back off the screen and you'll get an overview of the apps you have open. How that's supposed to be intuitive I have no idea.

Last but not least, closing apps. You may or may not know that to close an app, you have to grab its top and drag it down to the bottom of the screen. And you have to do it slowly, or your movement won't be recognized. On a big screen like the VAIO's, that takes two seconds. Two full seconds, for something that used to take naught but a click on a red button! I'm enough of a power user that that seriously bothers me. And it's not just that: the fanciness is overdone everywhere. In W7 it was already bothersome, but bearable: now it just gets in my way. Goddamn Minesweeper took thirty seconds to start up, taking me past loading screens, login screens, level selects, and a whole bunch of fancy animations in between. Thirty seconds!? I could have finished the game in that time! Twice! (On 'beginner', obviously). If they do this to (what used to be) a simple time-killing accessory like Minesweeper, I shudder at the thought of what else they still have in store.

The ugly

The design of the start screen I found utterly impersonal and downright annoying. Half the backgrounds are downright dull, the other half plain ugly, an all of them are terribly generic. Nope, you can't set a custom picture as background. There's about 20 predefined colour schemes to choose from; nope, can't define your own. And then the tiles. Every time you go to the start screen, BAM! COLOURFUL CHAOS! I should probably mention that I'm used to Rainmeter, which makes your desktop look like this; it's highly customizable and generally subdued. Next to that, the Start screen looks like a kindergarten: colourful, messy, and all the kids are begging for your attention. Oh yes, they are: the much-hailed live-updating tiles get downright annoying after a while. And often, in their efforts to grab your attention, the third-party apps get quite unrecognizable: while the tile displays a slideshow of sometimes barely relevant pictures, the actual logo of the app - your only hook to find the correct app in the mess of tiles - gets reduced to a tiny box in a corner. While that's technically not Microsoft's fault, it still adds to the issues that make the start screen - IMO - very annoying.

tl;dr

Touchscreen interface doesn't work quite as good as people would have you believe; except in the start screen, the mouse remains the most convenient input device. Multitasking is nigh impossible, fanciness gets in the way of productivity, the start screen is impersonal and chaotic. 2/5, recommend against.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 11:07:06 am by FreeSpaceFreak »

 
 

Offline m

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I've been using Windows 8 since the Release Preview came out.  At first I used a mouse and keyboard, but then I bought a touchscreen to make sure I got the full experience.  Since the Release Preview didn't have a walkthrough (like the full version does), I had to rely on web reviews and youtube videos to find out about things like which side to swipe in from for what.  I researched these before downloading the release preview, as any intelligent buyer should do before committing to a new product.  What ended up happening was that I switched back to the mouse and keyboard for most situations.  This actually eliminated most of the problems talked about by FreeSpaceFreak.
Quote
Aside from the start screen, I was rather disappointed by W8's touch controls. You know how with a mouse, the start button pops up if you move to the bottom-left corner? No such thing on touch. I tried tapping, dragging, swiping, to no avail. So much for an easy way back to the Start screen. The next most convenient option to go back would be via the ridiculously-named 'Charms bar', which you're supposed to swipe in from the right. There's a knack to that, too: you really have to swipe in from outside the screen border to bring it up, just dragging near the right edge isn't good enough. But alright, once I got that figured it went pretty smoothly
This was one of the things that I defaulted to mouse for.  While swiping in from the right makes sense on a tablet using a two-handed grip, on a normal PC with mouse and keyboard, it's much faster to move into the "Start Corner" and click.  Also, I'm pretty sure all Windows 8-branded tablets have a built-in Start button much like Apple's square and Android's Home.
Quote
Next up, multitasking. It's practically impossible. You've probably heard that all 'apps' (as in, stuff you get from the Windows Store) run in fullscreen, but that they can also be used side-by-side. Well, that's only true on a widescreen; if you want to multi-app on a 1280x1024, you're out of luck. And then still! Using apps side-by-side only works with one big and one small app. The width distribution is fixed around 80/20 (or 20/80). Even on a big screen like the VAIO's, this means the smaller app is barely wide enough for following a chat. There is no way to choose the width of the apps yourself, you can't even just make them equally wide (like you can on the desktop).
I don't piddle around too much with side-by-side multi-tasking; it's usually only when I want to have one of the Win8 "Metro" apps on the side of my desktop.  Like Music, Skype, or Video.  I find old-fashioned Alt-tabbing to be much easier.  Also, Alt-tabbing eliminates the frustration of the swipe-in-from-the-left-then-back issue.  Again, it might make better sense on a tablet, though without the tutorial, it'd be very hard to figure that out.
Quote
Last but not least, closing apps. You may or may not know that to close an app, you have to grab its top and drag it down to the bottom of the screen. And you have to do it slowly, or your movement won't be recognized. On a big screen like the VAIO's, that takes two seconds. Two full seconds, for something that used to take naught but a click on a red button! I'm enough of a power user that that seriously bothers me.
I, too, had frustration with this, but for a different reason.  On the big screen, it is annoying to try to use touch.  Again, probably easier on a tablet.  However, with a mouse, it's much more intuitive to drag from top to bottom than to swing to the corner to close the app with the "red button" which may or may not be there, depending on which program you're using.  Even if it is there, certain ones have a "dead zone" in the very corner to prevent accidental closes.  This results in (what do you know) a go-to-the-upper-right-corner-and-back issue.  Which is avoided by a simple click-and-drag from anywhere on the top.
My main problem with it was that it did not extend to so-called desktop (non-Metro) apps.  There have been a couple of times where, out of habit, I've clicked-and-dragged from the top, only to realize that instead of closing, I've only minimized my program to the taskbar.   :banghead:  I've also found myself trying to drag the start screen closed in order to get to the desktop, but since the desktop itself is considered an app, and the start screen is the new "main screen," this doesn't work.
Quote
The design of the start screen I found utterly impersonal and downright annoying. Half the backgrounds are downright dull, the other half plain ugly, an all of them are terribly generic. Nope, you can't set a custom picture as background. There's about 20 predefined colour schemes to choose from; nope, can't define your own. And then the tiles. Every time you go to the start screen, BAM! COLOURFUL CHAOS! I should probably mention that I'm used to Rainmeter, which makes your desktop look like this; it's highly customizable and generally subdued. Next to that, the Start screen looks like a kindergarten: colourful, messy, and all the kids are begging for your attention. Oh yes, they are: the much-hailed live-updating tiles get downright annoying after a while. And often, in their efforts to grab your attention, the third-party apps get quite unrecognizable: while the tile displays a slideshow of sometimes barely relevant pictures, the actual logo of the app - your only hook to find the correct app in the mess of tiles - gets reduced to a tiny box in a corner. While that's technically not Microsoft's fault, it still adds to the issues that make the start screen - IMO - very annoying.
This I wholeheartedly agree with.  Personally, I picked a color scheme very close to the hardlight forum's.  But I've also noticed the issues with live tiles (especially news apps) becoming hard to differentiate from other random-picture apps.  I'm sure with time you can remember where you have it (the system of naming groups of tiles can help with this), but if you want an easy-to-find logo, you'll have to disable the live feature.
On a positive note for power users, if you right-click the "Start Corner" you get a convenient listing of 15 commonly used features like the Control Panel, Disk Manager, Programs and Features, etc.  I only wish they let the control panel display as a menu instead of just a shortcut.
All told, I think Windows 8 works great with a mouse and keyboard, better than with touch on a large screen.  If you have a tablet, the touch will work well once you learn the system.  It does have a steep learning curve for people that are used to older versions of Windows, but come 25 years from now, nobody but us old folks will have any clue what a Start menu is.

Also, I'd like to recommend this in-depth Windows 8 review/walkthrough.  It's the best one I've come across so far: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/windows-8-review,3334.html
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FSF, try one of these?

Windows 8: Four approaches to Start Menu / Desktop restoration
Hey, I'm not actually using W8, just tried it out in a virtual box and at an electronics store. I'll take Linux any time - more stable, more safe, more user-friendly, better-looking (some distros, anyway) and free. Can't beat that in price/quality. And it comes with DVD playback right out of the box, idk why that's suddenly so hard for Windows.

*snip*
Ah, good, someone to counter my rather negative experience :) I too found the mouse+keyboard a better choice than touchscreen, despite the extra mouse distance required. The drag-down-to-close is surprisingly intuitive indeed, I just wish it would make do with a quick pull, instead of actually having to drag it all the way down. Good in-depth and objective review, too, thanks for sharing.

 

Offline BloodEagle

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Even reading the more positive reviews, I can't see how this could possibly be a good thing for 'power users'.

 

Offline jr2

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FSF, perhaps increase mouse sensitivity?  I like mine so I can get diagonally across the screen just using my thumb and fingers, keeping my hand stationary.  Takes getting used to but well worth it.

 

Offline mjn.mixael

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Also, I'd like to recommend this in-depth Windows 8 review/walkthrough.  It's the best one I've come across so far: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/windows-8-review,3334.html

Hmm.

I'm quite skeptical on using Win8 if even someone who generally likes it still suggests I read a 20 page article on how to use my 6th iteration of Windows. I really shouldn't have to study how to use Windows at this point.
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