Author Topic: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion  (Read 32112 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline headdie

  • i don't use punctuation lol
  • 212
  • Lawful Neutral with a Chaotic outook
    • Skype
    • Twitter
    • Headdie on Deviant Art
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
This thread is close to a major breakthrough that could synthesize some of the battle-to-battle tactical themes with the broader mythology much sooner than we expected.

So in other words you BP ppl are going to raid the hell out of this thread for ideas :p ;)
Minister of Interstellar Affairs Sol Union - Retired
quote General Battuta - "FRED is canon!"
Contact me at [email protected]
My Release Thread, Old Release Thread, Celestial Objects Thread, My rubbish attempts at art

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
If they are good enough I'm sure they will. Why wouldn't they?

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
We've had everything mapped out for years now, the answers to every question and the connections between every scrap of the mythology. We're not going to pull a Lost or BSG.

Not that you guys aren't brilliant, but we're not at a point where we need more ideas.

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
rofl obviously. All we have here are obscure diagonal attempts at trying to figure out what you already established eons ago.

 

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
No you guys are awesome  :(

 

Offline An4ximandros

  • 210
  • Transabyssal metastatic event
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
NEW TRINITY CONFIRMED:           
                                                      UEF---GTA---VI
                                          BRAHAMAS-SHIVANS-VISHNANS

:P

 
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
I can't tell you how glad I am to hear that Battuta. I'd much rather have BP's eventual ending be reminiscent of Babylon 5 instead of Battlestar Galactica in terms of coherency.

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
SO I WAS thinking about the Vasudans while driving home, and some interesting things came about spuriously.

The first idea that knocked my head was the notion that there's a very big shift happening in Vasudaland. When the GTVA was finally able to destroy the Lucifer, a similar shift happened. This race that had a very decentralized structure and which, to Battuta's words, relishes in the complexities, appointed an emperor, centralizing the power structure to one single Vasudan, thus simplifying it. I wonder if this change has anything to do with the relationship with the humans, who were themselves always at the brink of desintegration, as a means of countering this centrifugal pressure.

Now however, there are two very different human structures to which the Vasudans have to deal with. The whole problem has increased in complexity and uncertainty. Not only the Ubuntu is an amazing structure in itself that poses lots of ideological problems to the tevs, you also have to take into account Jupiter, Mars, the Nagari incidents, Nabirasul and so on.

Not that the Vasudans like the situation, they'd rather not have the terrans be having a civil war, however this is exactly the kind of sea they are just so fond of swimming: complexity. Thus we can already imagine their kind of strategy in the whole issue: rich, decentralized, double-play, tinkering in this planet in one way, in another event the other way. To an outsider who is unaware of Vasudan culture, he would characterize it as mischievous, misleading bull****. A closer inspection however reveals a much more nuanced, nobler purpose.

The Tevs will do exactly the opposite: to turn the complex into simple. In order to do so, they will try to make the situations converge to single meaningful events to win the war. Batman gambits, Steele-like Delenda Ests. While the Zods try to play the entire battlefields of the chess board, the meta-chess and the anti-meta-chesses, the Tevs gamble everything in the Black Swan fat tail events they know they can create and fool others into them.

Ubuntu has, until now, tried too hard to make inceptions of ideas into the minds of their enemies (it is precisely this danger that made the Tevs proclaim war on them in the first place). Some of this has back fired. The apparent inability of their armed forces to deal with the Tevs forced the hand of a splinter group the Wargods to adopt the metaphysics of the Tevs, however without sufficient cunning and experience they failed miserably at the hands of a better player. The Wargods are necessarily wrong. It is the "duty" of the protagonist in WiH2 to understand this failure and that the "secret weapon" of the UEFs is precisely its own metaphysical game style which will only show how it is an amazing strategy at the very end of the arc.

 

Offline redsniper

  • 211
  • Aim for the Top!
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
BP, I am intrigued and wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

So then.... how do the Shivans handle information processing and risk management and future prediction? :nervous:
I kind of feel like they don't really "plan" or "predict" at all, they just.... go. Comparisons to hive insects are played out and too terrestrial really. I'd say they operate even more fundamentally. Not like bees or ants more like.... crystal growth or something. They just build and travel and conquer in the only way they can, fitting into some larger pattern devised long ago and ingrained into every facet of the species. I wonder if they did it to themselves or if it was the Vishnans or someone else entirely. Or if I'm completely off my rocker.
"Think about nice things not unhappy things.
The future makes happy, if you make it yourself.
No war; think about happy things."   -WouterSmitssm

Hard Light Productions:
"...this conversation is pointlessly confrontational."

 

Offline Darius

  • Moderator
  • 211
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
There has been some absolutely cracking discussion going on. I am well pleased. :D

 

Offline -Norbert-

  • 211
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
If it was mentined in the backstory it must have slipped my mind, but how much power does the Vasudan Emperor actually have?
Does he have absolute power (like a benevolent dictator so to say)? Is he mostly a figurehead with very little actual political power, beyond his ability to influence the actual government (like the Elders)? Or is he something in between?
And what other political structures do the Vasudans have? Surely the Emperor can't just manage every day-to-day task of a multi system interstellar Empire all by himself.

 

Offline Androgeos Exeunt

  • Captain Oblivious
  • 212
  • Prevents attraction.
    • Wordpress.com Blog
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
If it was mentined in the backstory it must have slipped my mind, but how much power does the Vasudan Emperor actually have?
Does he have absolute power (like a benevolent dictator so to say)? Is he mostly a figurehead with very little actual political power, beyond his ability to influence the actual government (like the Elders)? Or is he something in between?
And what other political structures do the Vasudans have? Surely the Emperor can't just manage every day-to-day task of a multi system interstellar Empire all by himself.

Khonsu dissolved the PVE and was one of the biggest driving forces during the Reconstruction and creation of the GTVA.

You'd need a huge amount of power to do any of the three, so he probably isn't a figurehead.
My blog

Quote: Tuesday, 3 October 2023 0133 UTC +8, #general
MP-Ryan
Oh you still believe in fairy tales like Santa, the Easter Bunny, and free market competition principles?

 

Offline crizza

  • 210
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
Plus Khonsu is in charge of the Medjai.

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion

So then.... how do the Shivans handle information processing and risk management and future prediction? :nervous:
I kind of feel like they don't really "plan" or "predict" at all, they just.... go. Comparisons to hive insects are played out and too terrestrial really. I'd say they operate even more fundamentally. Not like bees or ants more like.... crystal growth or something. They just build and travel and conquer in the only way they can, fitting into some larger pattern devised long ago and ingrained into every facet of the species.

The shivans are somewhat of a blank slate where one can imagine a multitude of different ideas about them. Your idea is very intriguing, and someone else can think about Neumann probes (both of which seem to align with the idea of the Shivans not even be sentient, some kind of space zombies that are more powerful than everything else). My fascination with the shivans is about its very mystery which enables everyone who has contact with them to totally freak out and make all kinds of scare-stories (like zombifying them) that mankind has always done to whatever it was once "exotic" (and now is seen as mundane and / or silly).

(This is why I was slightly disappointed with the BP:aquarius portrayal of them, having them actually "talk" demoted their mystery to me...)

But your quote made me remember another quote (taking the theme of linking BP to Batman analogies):

Quote
Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it! You know, I just... *do* things.

I just did what I do best. I took your little plan and I turned it on itself.

 Introduce a little anarchy. Upset the established order, and everything becomes chaos. I'm an agent of chaos. Oh, and you know the thing about chaos? It's fair!

I just love quoting that guy. Probably too OT though, sorry about that.

 

Offline An4ximandros

  • 210
  • Transabyssal metastatic event
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
 The way I see it, the Shivans act on brute force to force someone down the path they desire, Capella was an ultimate example of that, they wanted to force the GTA into a dictatorship so they had a strong command structure, and in fact, the GTA became a more effective, calculating and brute military, an example would be the glass cannon flotilla (Serker), something only the Shivans used to have (Liliths, Rakhsahas), they now use more swarm tactics with their fighters as well, with older models (and their pilots and future AI/RC refits of older craft) being an expendable resource and ships like the Titan and Raynor working as the carrier and warships halves of Shivan Juggernauts (respectively.)

 The Vasudans with their look at time as being constant (with their ancestors essentially living with them) resemble the Vishnans (Masters of Past, Present and Future) and their "elevated" and long term look at things brings them even closer to them.

 Lastly the UEF seems like it could replace the lost Brhamans, remember how they reconstructed a chaotic Sol into the Federation? they built an infrastructure that made Sol self sustainable and they even have Kuiper Colonies allied with them (though not all, as shown by the GEF)

 
 I am certain the above points can be much thoroughly expanded by reading the released lore, sadly I don't have the time right now.  :sigh:

 

Offline -Norbert-

  • 211
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
If it was mentined in the backstory it must have slipped my mind, but how much power does the Vasudan Emperor actually have?
Does he have absolute power (like a benevolent dictator so to say)? Is he mostly a figurehead with very little actual political power, beyond his ability to influence the actual government (like the Elders)? Or is he something in between?
And what other political structures do the Vasudans have? Surely the Emperor can't just manage every day-to-day task of a multi system interstellar Empire all by himself.

Khonsu dissolved the PVE and was one of the biggest driving forces during the Reconstruction and creation of the GTVA.

You'd need a huge amount of power to do any of the three, so he probably isn't a figurehead.
He dissolved the old parliament, but did he replace it with anything? Is there an elected council, ruling beneath him, or is it a strickt hierarchy, with regents or governers below him? And so on and so forth....

 

Offline Luis Dias

  • 211
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
So there's the idea that the mortal trinity is in sync with the "immortal" trinity. I dislike that idea a lot, for it turns every character into a puppet under the hands of playful gods. Well, that is, unless the writers know their stuff and go the way of Job, which would be nice (off-character though).

The problem is that in that scenario, the Tevs did not arrive at their own conclusions by themselves, they did so because the Shivans tinkered them into doing so. The Feds have no responsibility at all on the metaphysics of their ideologies, they just serve the Brahmans, and the Zods are just mindless Vishnan followers.

However that question introduces the whole notion of the galactic Gods (the trinity) and how they mess up the relationship between the Zods, the Tevs and the Feds. I fear this "Gods" angle because then it is quite difficult any analysis, any "projection". Everything can be deus ex machinaed at any time by a single God. No matter how strange the wars between the three factions is, everything is suddenly simplified by the appearance of a Shivan Juggernaught fleet (and I guess that's the reason why An4ximandros made the comparison between the Shivans to the Tevs here).

This double scale stuff (small ant war being an analogy to the gods war) always stuck me as in bad taste, but this is completely personal (I also disliked the whole Babylon 5 mythology, although I appreciate the series).

SO I WONDER, apart from this simple B5 analogical stuff, is it possible for us to analyse these relationships in a more interesting, assymetrical, dynamical fashion?

  

Offline General Battuta

  • Poe's Law In Action
  • 214
  • i wonder when my postcount will exceed my iq
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
I'm also in camp asymmetry. The Shivans strike me as far too alien for any of the 'young' factions to provide an easy analogy even at the level of civilization-wide cognition.

 

Offline AtomicClucker

  • 28
  • Runnin' from Trebs
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
I'm also in camp asymmetry. The Shivans strike me as far too alien for any of the 'young' factions to provide an easy analogy even at the level of civilization-wide cognition.

I actually prefer my Shivans to be ominous and nuking everything in their path. Attempts to "humanize," or put the Shivans into a human context is a hard gamble, something that made reading the fluff about the GTVA's take on the Vishnans entertaining.
Blame Blue Planet for my Freespace2 addiction.

 

Offline redsniper

  • 211
  • Aim for the Top!
Re: Vasudan criticism of Tev focus on Sol Gate project--a little confusion
I don't think my Shivan theory up there really precludes sentience. IRL we can observe and predict large scale patterns of behavior in humanity and we're all still sentient individuals (I think... :nervous:). So I think the Shivans aren't necessarily mindless automatons, but they've either engineered their own psyches or had them engineered by someone else in order to give rise to specific large scale patterns of behavior. Like how that secret Nara texture batman text talks about the Shivans being inefficient at the tactical level, but unstoppable at the galactic level, but to what end.... who knows.

This is actually starting to sound kind of UEF, what with their love of feedback loops and things that bootstrap themselves up so they get their desired outcome sort of emergently. And the UEF also has at least one of their pilots being contacted by a Shivan-assimilated guy...
"Think about nice things not unhappy things.
The future makes happy, if you make it yourself.
No war; think about happy things."   -WouterSmitssm

Hard Light Productions:
"...this conversation is pointlessly confrontational."