[Luis Dias]

"but do not pretend surprise"
      "your creators blundered once"
      "unleashed the deepness"
      "of the cosmos"

I do not read here a "definitely". I read here a "possibly". I also read here other possibilities. Such as a state of affairs. The Vishnans or the Brahmans ****ed up, and unleashed an holocaust (for example), or unleashed the conditions for subsequent holocausts (for another example). "Your creators" is a strange wording. If this is directed to Laporte, and given the info we have in act 3 that Laporte is a "creation" of Ken + Shivans, then it becomes silly.

But yeah, I am almost convinced.

[qwadtep]

The ALLCAPS is the Vishnans, the alllowercase is the Shivans. You need to pay attention to the entire passage and not just the last few lines.

those who walk among infinite worlds must still wage war
The Vishnans are willing to write humanity off simply because of a civil war, so I highly doubt they'd tell Laporte as much.

do not be lulled by the soft words of mysticism and spirituality
A warning to Laporte to beware the Elders and their Vishnan influences

our purpose is unclear the ancient design fails
The Vishnans have violated the Shivan's understanding of the Protocol. The Shivans are now questioning their place in the universe.

leaving us to preserve and our brothers in dance to their frigid watch at the border where worlds fray and blur together
brothers, brothers paramatma! why are you so cold? you tend to the walls and the clockwork while we, the gardeners execute your will upon all the life within.
The Vishnans are the ones who really deal with interdimensional stuff. The Shivans just maintain and cull the life within each universe.

you maintain the old plan but do not pretend surprise when we cast it aside
After Universal Truth, the Shivans have rejected the Vishnans and now pursue their own agenda outside the Brahman's design.


As another point of note, Ken is very firm about the fact that Laporte should never, ever think about the Great Darkness again and refuses to speak any more on the matter. If the Great Darkness were some sort of philosophical metaphor Bosch would go off on a whole monologue about it. It's something real, something tangible that drives Laporte's puny human brain off a cliff and terrifies even the godkiller Shivans to silence.

[Drogoth]

It's Alpha 1 - the one thing the Shivans could never stop

[An4ximandros]

 The whole thing's clearly a reference to Zoroastrianism. It's totally Ahriman, guys.

[redsniper]

It's an anti-sentient weapon. If you're connected to the nagari network and you think about it, it kills you. And it killed everyone in the Dawn War or First Apocalypse or whatever.

[-Sara-]

Or some race ,maybe the Brahmas, got impatient and tried to trigger some mass-evolution into Nagari existence, botching things up. It's not impossible that the Shivans do not know everything that transpired either after all. It's easy to assume they know (and told) us everything, while they may not.

[##UnknownPlayer##]

Or some race ,maybe the Brahmas, got impatient and tried to trigger some mass-evolution into Nagari existence, botching things up. It's not impossible that the Shivans do not know everything that transpired either after all. It's easy to assume they know (and told) us everything, while they may not.

After finishing WiH:P3, that's actually the notion I was really left with:

If Bei is the Vishnans representative, and received what seems to be an unreliable account of Vishnan-Shivan communication at the end of AoA, then it seems a lot like Laporte is the Shivan counter-move in that engagement, with the whole WiH saga seems to be about her becoming very much more Shivan-like - brutal, decisive and disengaged from her humanity. There's no reason to think they gave her a more reliable account of events, and it seems like they got everything they wanted as a result: someone who believes the Shivans should be protected, and distrusts everything Vishnan.

It seems telling to me that the whole of the Fedayeen was centered around a super-computer which was actually an allegedly dead Shivan mind, and as a result there whole modus-operandi was very Shivan-like in contrast to the Vishnans.

[-Norbert-]

I actually got the feeling that the Shivans wanted to have Laport as a counter for Bei, but Ken managed to take over and is now playing somewhere in the middleground, between the two old races, trying desperately to prevent mankind from being destroyed or absorbed.

[Luis Dias]

Yes, there's obviously a symmetry between Laporte and Bei, cleverly sidetracked or confused by the inclusion of Ken.

I also found the Vishnan alledged behavior lacking. So we are led to believe that the Vishnan "plan" included sidetracking the 14th battlegroup into another universe, they manipulated them and denied the Shivans their cull. Then they made them comeback, and immediately their plan failed. I mean, it took 2 minutes to become an abysmal case study on how *not* to perform psychological surgery. And then, the cull is called by the Vishnans and now it is the Shivans who don't want to do it.

Mom and dad are having a really hard time figuring out how to deal with this rabid toddler.

[General Battuta]

Yes, there's obviously a symmetry between Laporte and Bei, cleverly sidetracked or confused by the inclusion of Ken.

I also found the Vishnan alledged behavior lacking. So we are led to believe that the Vishnan "plan" included sidetracking the 14th battlegroup into another universe, they manipulated them and denied the Shivans their cull. Then they made them comeback, and immediately their plan failed. I mean, it took 2 minutes to become an abysmal case study on how *not* to perform psychological surgery. And then, the cull is called by the Vishnans and now it is the Shivans who don't want to do it.

Mom and dad are having a really hard time figuring out how to deal with this rabid toddler.

I'm not sure their plan failed immediately. They successfully prevented the immediate surrender of the UEF.

[Luis Dias]

I'm also not sure their plan failed. I am saying that if we are to believe the narrative that the Vishnans ordered the cull right when the war started (and thus stopped talking to the UEF), then their plain did fail immediately.

This is why I said "alledged". Because it makes little sense. What we know for sure is that there is a "cull order" in effect 18 months after the war started. Why? If the purpose of the detour was to give the UEF some fighting chance, then they got it. Why should they be punished for being successful at defending their system? Vishnan behavior seems contradictory at some angles. I get the feeling that once I figure out their behavior, I'll have solved major puzzles in the story.

[Valiran]

Yes, there's obviously a symmetry between Laporte and Bei, cleverly sidetracked or confused by the inclusion of Ken.

I also found the Vishnan alledged behavior lacking. So we are led to believe that the Vishnan "plan" included sidetracking the 14th battlegroup into another universe, they manipulated them and denied the Shivans their cull. Then they made them comeback, and immediately their plan failed. I mean, it took 2 minutes to become an abysmal case study on how *not* to perform psychological surgery. And then, the cull is called by the Vishnans and now it is the Shivans who don't want to do it.

Mom and dad are having a really hard time figuring out how to deal with this rabid toddler.

I'm also not sure their plan failed. I am saying that if we are to believe the narrative that the Vishnans ordered the cull right when the war started (and thus stopped talking to the UEF), then their plain did fail immediately.

This is why I said "alledged". Because it makes little sense. What we know for sure is that there is a "cull order" in effect 18 months after the war started. Why? If the purpose of the detour was to give the UEF some fighting chance, then they got it. Why should they be punished for being successful at defending their system? Vishnan behavior seems contradictory at some angles. I get the feeling that once I figure out their behavior, I'll have solved major puzzles in the story.

Yeah, I got that feeling too.  Given how the Vishnans have been behaving and what we know about them, it makes them come across as stupid and incompetent.  They're either incapable of realizing that problems can be solved by talking about them in a mature and civilized fashion, or something is keeping them from doing so.  If they're capable of operating on a scale we can't even comprehend, then why haven't they manifested in our universe and explained what their reasons are?

From what I've gathered, the "Dawn War" is something that happened eons ago between two or more Kardashev-3 or higher civilizations that caused unimaginably horrific destruction across the cosmos, and their war created/unleashed something that now wanders the Nagari psychic network which Ken and maybe even the Shivans and Vishnans are unspeakably terrified of.  The Shivans and Vishnans seek to prevent this by culling species that they believe are too violent and would eventually do the same thing.  The threshold for culling is apparently very low, since Humanity and the Vasudans had explored less than thirty star systems by the time FS1 occurs.

The problem lies with the fact that the Shivans never bothered to communicate with the Terrans or Vasudans.  They never explained why they were behaving like a bunch of omnicidal maniacs.  If they'd explained things to us, or just swooped in with a fleet that blotted out the sun and told us to knock it off, we probably would have listened.  Then there's the Vishnans.  How, exactly, is the current war between the GTVA and UEF "a sign of unforgivable failure"?  Ubuntu is implied to have been influenced by the Vishnans, and it's a great philosophy.  Before the war started, Sol was apparently a wonderful place to live thanks to Ubuntu.  But the GTA is right about it having no answer to the Shivans.  The reason the war happened in the first place is because the GTA sees Ubuntu as a nearly suicidal philosophy in a universe inhabited by hordes of xenocidal aliens, because as far as they know the Shivans are going to come and try to kill us all again and Ubuntu will make it easy for them to succeed.

The GTA is copying Shivan tactics because those tactics work.  War has always been fought that way.  Their military buildup is due to them wanting to not be exterminated by the Shivans.  That's what you're supposed to do when a neighboring city/nation/galactic empire wants to kill you and destroy everything you love.  The war in Sol is happening because the GTA sees Ubuntu as a philosophy that will lead to the extinction of the Human species.  Because of the Shivans, we don't get to have a civilization where the peace, compassion, and enlightenment of Ubuntu can flourish.  Because of their ****ing murderous rampages, the GTVA lives in fear of an alien juggernaut that stands ready to annihilate their civilization.  And to top it all off, it looks like the Vishnans are trying to punish them for trying to survive as best they know how.

It's like they're trying to punish us for being intelligent and rational.

Why, in God's name, can't they just talk to us straight?  Are they incapable of figuring out how to talk to us primitives?  Are the Shivans and Vishnans so ****ing stupid that they can't even even figure out how to use subspace or, godforbid, radio to talk to us, or is there actually a legitimate reason they can't just behave like reasonable adults and use their words?! 

And yeah, I'm pissed about it!  I know that there's probably a reason why they haven't talked to us about it straight, that I don't have all of the information and that Blue Planet's the writers aren't going to let us down, but I'm still mad at these egotistical Vorlonoids!  The way the Vishnans have been behaving is like the white phosphorus scene in "Spec Ops: The Line", where the game tries to make you look like a murdering bastard for using it, but never gives you the option not to!  Instead of inspiring awe and wonder, the Shivans and Vishnans are coming across as capricious, arbitrary, unjust, unforgiving - and possibly malevolent - bullies and control freaks!

*deep breath*

Okay, rant over.  It's not as coherent or eloquent as I'd like, but I needed to get that off my chest.

[Doko]

The shivans don't care about humanity understanding why they are being culled, they just care about the outcome of their pressure. "Strength earns survival".

As to why this is the case, I don't know, the shivans could simply have wiped us out when we crossed the threshold of the protocol's boundaries. "Selective pressure for resumption of panontic function" comes to mind but beyond making the races realize that if they don't stand together there's no hope of survival it doesn't make much sense to me considering you are not really teaching them anything, just because there's a bigger threat out there, doesn't mean that they are enlightened (and note that humans, except for laporte don't trully know the extent of shivan power, in their minds they are still an enemy that can be beaten).

Unless... I'm completely missinterpreting the above quote and what the shivans were saying is that they had to excert pressure on whoever "won" the dawn war for any other form of life to arise from its ashes.

As for the vishnan, well.. they might write off humanity as a failure because they fail to comprehend individuality. They (presumably) sent the expeditionary force to the paralel universe to show them what would happen if they didn't cooperate, that failed but not entirely, lots of people defected to the UEF but for them that might not matter, for them not thinking as a whole (like say.. ubuntu would) is already a sign of failure.

I've kind of given up trying to figure out the great darkness without more information.

[Luis Dias]

They aren't benevolent nor malevolent. They just care about problems of higher scale. "Explaining" things to terrans and vasudans would accomplish nothing I think, and it could only make matters worse (they would expose themselves and their agendas, they would be fragile to rebeld terrorist guerrilla tactics from minor species, etc.). Also, as the Vishnan cleverly put it, Revelation demands necessity. We find none. Why should they reveal their purposes when they can just manipulate instead?

I'm more worried about the inconsistencies I've outlined. They are the key to understand future events in BP2 and BP3.

[An4ximandros]

 So, according to your logic, Valiran, the Vishnans should just come and say: "Yo guys! We need assimilate your noosphere into our Megatranscognitive network to save the universe. You cool with that?"

 Aside: Nagari is not magic, it's information downloaded directly into the neurons. It's achieved by quantum vibrations. For all we know the GD is just a giant scareware SPAM virus.

[leoben]

Aight, I just finished reading this thread from start to finish. Jeez guys

The story is mind-bending, and the fact that we're discussing possible outcomes and trying to come up with explanation to story elements that currently don't add up yet is also amazing!

A couple of points, in no particular order that makes sense - please correct me if I'm assuming too much, or interpreting the story incorrectly:

- in AoA, we witnessed a conversation between the Vs and Ss, and then again in BP2 with some more granularity. Both of those discussions indicated that the Vs and Ss have a major dispute in interpreting the Protocol, at least they don't agree on the actions that need to be taken, that are, we think, aimed at the same goal (whatever exactly that might be, like avoiding the GD)
- based on the AoA discussions, the Vs somehow 'banished' the Shivans, or at least expelled them, not sure how this has been accomplished, but the Vs clearly have some sort of a hold over the Ss, otherwise this discussion would have taken quite a different curve
- It would be fair to assume that the Vs interfered with the 14th transit to Earth to displace them in the alternate universe, and to have that task force abandon their original objectives
- Given that the Vs are a super-advanced race with intellect that can not be comprehended by humans, it had to be clear to them that simply convincing the 14th to switch to the Feds, will not change the GTVAs intentions of returning to Earth in force and forcing the UEF to surrender
- All the posts I read so far (correct me if I'm wrong) assume that events did not evolve as the Vs planned, and that's why they 'ordered a cull'. I think we're not giving the Vs enough credit to their intellect and capability to predict future events. Even the Fedayeen have computational capabilities that could have foretold events as they happened, and an entire V collective failed to do so? Something doesn't add up.
- Moving back to the current (BP2) relationship between Vs and Ss, what is more likely? That after having a major falling out between the two, the Ss suddenly started obeying the Vs again, and started a culling, but Ken stops it? Or that 'external heuristic injection' is not Ken at all, but someone else? Like the Vs? For all we know, the Ss are still pursuing their original intention in AoA and trying to cull the human race. We're assuming that Bosch is not just a part of the S collective that is observing and just trying to warn the UEF through LaPorte how to avoid this, but that he actually has the power to interfere with the 'programming' of the S collective. Maybe we're assuming too much here?

In any case, there are still a lot of unknowns in the story, and 1+1 are not always 2 (yet). That's what makes this story sooo freakishly scary and awesome.

Feel free to argue with and dispute whatever is above, would love to read more of your thoughts.

[-Norbert-]

- All the posts I read so far (correct me if I'm wrong) assume that events did not evolve as the Vs planned, and that's why they 'ordered a cull'. I think we're not giving the Vs enough credit to their intellect and capability to predict future events. Even the Fedayeen have computational capabilities that could have foretold events as they happened, and an entire V collective failed to do so? Something doesn't add up.

I'd imagine it's easier to predict the actions of your own species, rather than some species that doesn't even think the same way you do.
It's quite possible that the Human mind is as incomprehensible to the Vishnans and Shivans, as their minds are to us Humans. They might be able to look at our past actions and reactions to certain stimuli and situations and try to predict the future from that, but can they really understand our minds, emotions and motivations? If not, their predictions are boud to be imperfect.

It also possible that the whole stunt with the 14th BG was never meant to be a solution in itself, but rather a test or second chance.... one we seem to have blown somehow.... or maybe it's part of the plan to appear that way.

- Moving back to the current (BP2) relationship between Vs and Ss, what is more likely? That after having a major falling out between the two, the Ss suddenly started obeying the Vs again, and started a culling, but Ken stops it? Or that 'external heuristic injection' is not Ken at all, but someone else? Like the Vs? For all we know, the Ss are still pursuing their original intention in AoA and trying to cull the human race. We're assuming that Bosch is not just a part of the S collective that is observing and just trying to warn the UEF through LaPorte how to avoid this, but that he actually has the power to interfere with the 'programming' of the S collective. Maybe we're assuming too much here?

We don't know if the Shivans in our universe even know about what happened in the other Universe. It's possible that "over here" the Shivans and Vishnans never had a falling out and that their arguing is just constructive discussion on what to do.
And I'm pretty sure that Ken is not a part of the Shivan collective.
Since we already saw two quite different versions of the talk between Shiva and Vishnu (when Laporte tells Bei what she saw he was surprised and in denial about the version of events she saw), we really can't make any assumptions on what they were really talking about. For all we know they just said: "Let's make a bet wether they can make it to the node before we destroy them. The winner is paying for dinner!".... Okay that is pretty much impossible, but you get the point.
It's even possible that the whole thing was staged and the Shivans only attacked the 14th in order to make the Vishnans appear the benevolent saviours.

In any case, there are still a lot of unknowns in the story, and 1+1 are not always 2 (yet).

That's the beauty of it. It keeps us hooked for the next release and gives us plenty of opportunity to work those grey cells in speculation

[wistler]

From what I understood a lot of the Fedayeen's predictive power comes from knowing how individuals would react. Knowing Lopez would not sacrifice her crew, knowing Steele would come to her aid or not depending on the threat. I'd be surprised if the V's and S's could predict anything so,subtle about us.

[Luis Dias]

- All the posts I read so far (correct me if I'm wrong) assume that events did not evolve as the Vs planned, and that's why they 'ordered a cull'. I think we're not giving the Vs enough credit to their intellect and capability to predict future events. Even the Fedayeen have computational capabilities that could have foretold events as they happened, and an entire V collective failed to do so? Something doesn't add up.

You're wrong:

I'm also not sure their plan failed. I am saying that if we are to believe the narrative that the Vishnans ordered the cull right when the war started (and thus stopped talking to the UEF), then their plain did fail immediately.

This is why I said "alledged". Because it makes little sense. What we know for sure is that there is a "cull order" in effect 18 months after the war started. Why? If the purpose of the detour was to give the UEF some fighting chance, then they got it. Why should they be punished for being successful at defending their system? Vishnan behavior seems contradictory at some angles. I get the feeling that once I figure out their behavior, I'll have solved major puzzles in the story.

[leoben]

Luis Dias - wrong about what? I'm merely asking questions.

OK - so we're assuming that the Vs and Ss collective minds do not span across universes? Wouldn't that assume that the 14th transit to the alternate universe was a coincidence?