[CT27]

It seems losses are experience. They learn and adapt from that. "To fight them is to teach them".

So Shivans are kind of like the Borg in a sense?

[Valiran]

It seems losses are experience. They learn and adapt from that. "To fight them is to teach them".

So Shivans are kind of like the Borg in a sense?

Looks like it.  They may not adapt as quickly as the Borg do, but they're more competent due to not having a single organism in charge of their entire species.

[Drogoth]

I'd compare them more closely with the Formics from the Ender's Game series, since the borg don't usually drag boss woman along with them.

[BritishShivans]

Well, more like not as braindead. I remember there was this theory the reason the Borg are so dumb because their networks have massive latency due to the Borg's insistence that every drone must be linked to the collective, meaning that responding quickly and utilizing tactics/issuing a response to a threat/assimilation/their thought processes are actually much slower than 'real' time, and that assimilation is a response to being unable to devote significant computing to research because of the above.

The Shivans don't have this, and on top of this, they actually possess an understanding of tactics and strategy beyond "walk over to bad thing and shoot/stab it".

Also, the new stuff confirms what I thought about BP Shivans: They're aren't actually a species in the normal sense, and are rather weapons directed by an intelligent entity when deemed necessary.

[Valiran]

Well, more like not as braindead. I remember there was this theory the reason the Borg are so dumb because their networks have massive latency due to the Borg's insistence that every drone must be linked to the collective, meaning that responding quickly and utilizing tactics/issuing a response to a threat/assimilation/their thought processes are actually much slower than 'real' time, and that assimilation is a response to being unable to devote significant computing to research because of the above.

The theory I was going with is that there's only so much the queen can manage at one time.  For example, whenever I play GalCiv 2, I eventually reach a point where I control so many planets that I start overlooking things.  An improvement here, a shipyard queue there, minor things that still could be managed more effectively if I just didn't have so many of them.  I'm thinking that the Borg have the same problem due to having everything controlled by the Queen, there's only so much a single organism can do.

[redsniper]

apatic animae have a different specialty.

Like constructing trans-abyssal gates.

[a_b_c]

apatic animae have a different specialty.

Like constructing trans-abyssal gates.

Seems likely!  Another thought I had was that the references to apatic animae in UT2 could hint at their structure/specialization.  For example:

apatic anima supervisory issues covert resolution: execute roadblock. generate transabyssal connection. stand by.

apatic anima disseminate: engineer transabyssal gate. strategic transitional event imminent. notify exostotic elements. cognicide contingency to active.

could indicate a hierarchy, not necessarily a command hierarchy - something like the complement system

[docfu]

I liked the Shivans better when I was just mindlessly shooting them down in droves...

[MatthTheGeek]

I doubt you'll ever stop having Shivans to shoot at...

[Phantom Hoover]

indeed one of the major revelations about the shivans tenebra gave us is that being shot down in droves is their fundamental mode of combat

[Valiran]

indeed one of the major revelations about the shivans tenebra gave us is that being shot down in droves is their fundamental mode of combat

Which makes you wonder why a civilization as advanced as they are would resort to tactics like that.  There must be a reason, and while it's obvious they can afford to lose thousands of fighters and dozens of ships there is such a thing as "efficiency".  Destroyed ships can't be used elsewhere, after all.

[An4ximandros]

The very same mission tells you being efficient makes you predictable, which is a problem when you face enemies that span across galaxies, and thus have a somewhat comparable level of technology to the Shivans. By being random, the enemy is less likely to figure out what the hell they are doing before they are ready to strike the final blow.

And remember, all systems can be subverted, even the Shivans'/Vishnans'.

[Phantom Hoover]

Yeah, the aim seems to be to ensure that no strategy can beat the Shivans in the long run. Note that even the seemingly intelligent overmind we see in UT2 is all being delivered by Ken, whose purpose seems to be to allow the Shivans to coöpt other intelligences without introducing their vulnerabilities.

[Aesaar]

The Shivans span eternity and infinity. Their challengers are unimaginably diverse, armed with weapons that shatter stars and tactics devised by galaxy-spanning minds. To be optimal is to be predictable.

And so, like the cells of a tumor, the Shivans are infinitely mutable. They contain all weapons and all strategems, waiting in the dark. To attack them is to teach them your strengths and failings. Each blow turns back upon you. 

It is a weak tactic in the short run, in a given year, a given system. But they have time to spare.

[docfu]

"If it bleeds, we can kill it."

[QuakeIV]

Its probably possible to kill them, academically speaking.

[An4ximandros]

... but do we want to?

[docfu]

The second we win this war our budgets will be slashed to nothing...

Might be a good idea to keep a few shivans backed up in a sector somewhere...

Sure we may lose a few pilots and ships but in the long run we'll be better off than had we exterminated them completely.

You didn't really want to go back to flipping hamburgers anyway... Did you?

[Phantom Hoover]

However the plot of BP is resolved, it will not be in a way that serves human interests before those of the Shivans. Calling it now.

[docfu]

Ha! Do you not know the first rule of Hollywood? Always leave room for a sequel in case your project is successful.

There will never be an end to Blue Planet, just one cliffhanger after the net til the day we die.

Ain't life grand?