[Killer Whale]

Yeah i forgot the meaning of the darwin awards. In retrospect, we will wait and see them hopefully weed themselves out kids and all

Well their kids have first-hand evidence now that PRAYER DOESN'T WORK.  Might help them out in the long run.

I'm going to go out on a limb and suspect that what you mean it that "faith healing doesn't work", a unanimous agreement from all present, but I interpret your sentence as "your (all people who pray) religion is bogus". My interpretation of your sentence is one which is highly disrespectful.

e. I also suspect (hope) that it is the different interpretations of this statement which are giving rise to a lot of the tension in this discussion.

[Nemesis6]

To be fair, the Bible says that prayer works.

Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours.

So when prayer doesn't work, that can mean one of several things:

Primarily of all, god doesn't exist, god does not care, or they were not "real" Christians. That last one is problematic because they all say that about each other, no matter how buddy-buddy they act when talking to each other when they do that "interfaith" stuff. That is to say, they each believe that the other part is going to hell. In the end, it's just a book that has no evidence of its claims of god and all that that people believe because of indoctrination. Also, god can't stop iron chariots.

[Aesaar]

I'm going to go out on a limb and suspect that what you mean it that "faith healing doesn't work", a unanimous agreement from all present, but I interpret your sentence as "your (all people who pray) religion is bogus". My interpretation of your sentence is one which is highly disrespectful.

e. I also suspect (hope) that it is the different interpretations of this statement which are giving rise to a lot of the tension in this discussion.

Is religion owed more respect than any other idea?  If I say "Soviet economic policies don't work", am I being highly disrespectful?  Should I be more considerate of people who are, in my view, deluded?

And if these aren't the same, why not?

[karajorma]

If you say that Soviet policy does not work, you can make an argument for why it doesn't.

What you can't do is extrapolate from this one example that prayer doesn't work. I don't believe it does, but the logic in the argument presented here is faulty.

Let me give you an alternative scenario though. Let's say that these guys instead of believing in faith healing did something far more moderate, let's say they voted Republican. Their kid becomes sick and when they get to the hospital their insurance won't cover treatment, a week later the kid dies of unforseen complications which would have been caught had he been treated.

Someone who comes onto the thead and says "See what happens when you don't vote for Obama!" Is quite obviously a hooting dickhole.

Even if you can make an argument that the lack of Obamacare is what doomed the kid, reducing the entire issue of who to vote for down to a single death and then using that issue to beat every single Republican over the head with it makes you disrespectful.

[mjn.mixael]

Heh... what's funny is Bobboau was one of the ones I had in mind when writing my previous posts.

because his view, or more accurately what he would like to see the world move towards, has been materially shown to result in less misery and death. this assumes one values happiness and life to qualify as 'better'.

Dunno man... your attitude seems to making the world a worse place to be... at least, I don't want to be around a world filled with guys like you.

Now, I've seen how these arguments go with you and I'm just going to step out. You have a track record of being disrespectful of differing viewpoints and being proud of it...

[Aesaar]

If you say that Soviet policy does not work, you can make an argument for why it doesn't.

What you can't do is extrapolate from this one example that prayer doesn't work. I don't believe it does, but the logic in the argument presented here is faulty.

Let me give you an alternative scenario though. Let's say that these guys instead of believing in faith healing did something far more moderate, let's say they voted Republican. Their kid becomes sick and when they get to the hospital their insurance won't cover treatment, a week later the kid dies of unforseen complications which would have been caught had he been treated.

Someone who comes onto the thead and says "See what happens when you don't vote for Obama!" Is quite obviously a hooting dickhole.

Even if you can make an argument that the lack of Obamacare is what doomed the kid, reducing the entire issue of who to vote for down to a single death and then using that issue to beat every single Republican over the head with it makes you disrespectful.

I think the strong response here is precisely because this faith healing thing is extreme.  I don't think you'd get a reaction like this in a moderate case like you describe.  Say, if they'd gotten their child real medical care, prayed too, and the child died anyway.  These parents are overwhelmingly responsible for their child's death, and their religion was a big part of their decision.

I'm not saying this single incident is enough to prove anything one way or the other.  But this isn't the only incident of prayer doing nothing.  What I'm saying is that even on the off-chance it does work, prayer is as likely to give you concrete solutions to problems as buying a lottery ticket is to help you with financial difficulties.  Saying so in a discussion on the topic is not disrespectful.

I personally don't think saying "I think your religion is bull****" is disrespectful either.  It just doesn't need to be brought up all the time.  But again, since this is a thread about religion, I wouldn't say it's the wrong place to say it.

[Killer Whale]

I personally don't think saying "I think your religion is bull****" is disrespectful either.  It just doesn't need to be brought up all the time.  But again, since this is a thread about religion, I wouldn't say it's the wrong place to say it.

Of course it is. You'd also be disrespectful if you said "soviet economic policy doesn't work", but virtually no-one would care or be indignant. Blatantly not showing respect for something is being disrespectful of it, but how much people will care or call you out on it varies from subject to subject.

Is it "owed more respect?" Well that's entirely subjective. In my view yes. Hence I call people out (people I care about) on being disrespectful to religion, particularly mine (I'm NOT saying I'm a faith healer, jeez), because I expect them to be respectful to me. However, it is an effective way of starting a discussion, if a little too likely to lead to an argument. That said, this is indeed now a religious discussion, and such a statement would now fit, but commencing it with such a statement is a little jarring.

[ShadowWolf_IH]

So let's ban religion because a world in which we are told what to think is so much better than exercising our free will to think for ourselves. 

I am in a great deal of pain today, so my thoughts are a bit jumbled. 

The problem isn't religion, the problem is man's interpretation of words written by another man.  Actually that isn't even the core of the problem.  The core of the problem is vanity.  Vanity says "I am right, therefore you must believe as I do."  Showing someone your beliefs is a much stronger argument than forcing them on someone.  I for instance have always believed that you will never believe in something more deeply than when you are forced to defend it.  Case in point...read this thread.

We as humans often cross the line between teaching our children and forcing our beliefs on them by what we subject them to.  My lady for instance is a devout democrat.  She watches MSNBC because the views presented there coincide with hers.  Those are the only views that my children get subjected to most times.  I've taken to turning on Fox News, not because they are impartial, we all know better than that, but so that my children can hear an opposing viewpoint, and then ask questions and formulate an opinion different from that of mine or my wife.  Note, I am purposely leaving my political beliefs out.

The thing is, I want my children to be informed, and not base what they believe on any one side of the coin.  It also teaches them to be tolerant of an opposing viewpoint, while going against it. 

I already told you guys that I am in a great deal of pain.  My "faith healing" is simple.  I am seeing myself healed.  Seeing the little construction workers in my back healing me.  I have faith that sending these positive energies is helping.  You can send all of the positive energies that you want, but it won't help.  It isn't your mind helping your body.  It would be your mind helping mine, and i just don't think it works like that.  So it won't.  (read about this in Zen and the Martial Arts by Joe Hyam)  Are these energies stemming from an untapped potential of the human mind the end all be all of healing?  Hell no, not in book anyway.  Do they supplement conventional forms....I believe so.

Anyway, when the child was that sick and no one took him to the doctor, why did no one think to call CPS, or the Police?  When our beliefs endanger a helpless being, we are doing something wrong.

Banning things isn't the answer.  Educating in such a way that people don't have to defend, and are therefore more open to an opposing viewpoint is.


 

[Aesaar]

Of course it is. You'd also be disrespectful if you said "soviet economic policy doesn't work", but virtually no-one would care or be indignant. Blatantly not showing respect for something is being disrespectful of it, but how much people will care or call you out on it varies from subject to subject.

Is it "owed more respect?" Well that's entirely subjective. In my view yes. Hence I call people out (people I care about) on being disrespectful to religion, particularly mine (I'm NOT saying I'm a faith healer, jeez), because I expect them to be respectful to me. However, it is an effective way of starting a discussion, if a little too likely to lead to an argument. That said, this is indeed now a religious discussion, and such a statement would now fit, but commencing it with such a statement is a little jarring.

Wouldn't that mean that, by that standard, any opinion is disrespectful if there are people who disagree?

If you're secure in your beliefs, then it shouldn't matter to you if there are people who think your religion is bull****.  You could tell me atheism is bull****, and if you didn't feel like having a reasonable discussion about it, I'd respond with a simple "Good for you. I don't give a ****".  So no, I don't think anyone has any duty to be respectful to a belief or institution they have no respect for.  However, that does not mean one shouldn't be civil.  You can dislike a person's beliefs without purposefully insulting them.

I don't think any beliefs are due respect.  If you're unable or unwilling to defend yours, that isn't my problem.  If you are, great, we can have a civil discussion on the subject.  Maybe you can change my mind, or I can change yours.

[NGTM-1R]

What you can't do is extrapolate from this one example that prayer doesn't work.

I don't think anyone making an argument prayer does not work has a single example in mind. The assertion is not made using this single example, but many examples of which this is confirmation.

Although, again, its failure to produce consistent results is indeed a fair sign of it not working.

That last one is problematic because they all say that about each other, no matter how buddy-buddy they act when talking to each other when they do that "interfaith" stuff. That is to say, they each believe that the other part is going to hell.

Fascinatingly wrong; fairly large cross-sect groups of Christianity right now allow that they will not. (c.f. Roman Catholic vs. Orthodox vs. Lutheran; anywhere you can go to Mass and it counts in the eyes of your parent church is not a group bound for hell.) Of course you have a habit of taking about Real, True Christians who are typically right-wing Protestant as if they compose the majority of Christians, which they don't.

[Bobboau]

Heh... what's funny is Bobboau was one of the ones I had in mind when writing my previous posts.

because his view, or more accurately what he would like to see the world move towards, has been materially shown to result in less misery and death. this assumes one values happiness and life to qualify as 'better'.

Dunno man... your attitude seems to making the world a worse place to be... at least, I don't want to be around a world filled with guys like you.

Now, I've seen how these arguments go with you and I'm just going to step out. You have a track record of being disrespectful of differing viewpoints and being proud of it...

glad to see I've rubbed off on you.